H J s system !
- Thread starter andromedaaudio
- Start date
Digital 
, the horns were Gran Gioia , but i am in the process of getting topclass digital (whatever that might be ) ,just for a try out again besides my wadia 581 se adventure of 6 years ago.
As finally my speaker adventure has been completed , i am now gonna build a system , i might even go into cables any well respected audiofile should at least have a 10 K cd player
Whenever you are in amsterdam you are welcome to have a listen , but only when i have the Tape project tapes besides my other tapes, then you can hear what real analogue high end can sound like
, the horns were Gran Gioia , but i am in the process of getting topclass digital (whatever that might be ) ,just for a try out again besides my wadia 581 se adventure of 6 years ago.As finally my speaker adventure has been completed , i am now gonna build a system , i might even go into cables
any well respected audiofile should at least have a 10 K cd playerWhenever you are in amsterdam you are welcome to have a listen , but only when i have the Tape project tapes besides my other tapes, then you can hear what real analogue high end can sound like
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My new toy , gonna measure again with this unit just to check , this is with the latest CLIO 11 software incl accelerometer (for housingvibrations ) , it also has nicer graphs and has much more measurementspossibilties and supposed to be easy to use
DSC_0255 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0256 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0255 by andromeda61, on FlickrDSC_0256 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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Have been playing around a bit with the clio FW 01 hardware and Clio 11 software , the possibilties are endless for example you have a full fledge multimeter as well to measure capitance, resistance voltage current induction .
Various ways to measure the FR among things , more to come
In this graph i used a log chirp 10 hz - 20 kHz sweep its fast and the system works fine although its quite complicated in the beginning , you also need a FW 400 connection ( 6 pins ) .
This is a graph on a 40 degrees angle , you see this has virtually no high freq drop off , those top of the line scanspeak tweeters have a very large sweetspot , just what i like , i dont like to sit as a robot , you can virtually put the speakers straight and have a acceptable FR at the listening spot
You can see where the room influences kick in , it has 20 hz bassoutput -3 db , but getting good bass is more of an art then science this graph is workable from around 200-300 hz up
This speaker stays within +- 2 db under a 40 degree angle , most manufacturers dont mention the smoothing factor which makes mentioning the FR pretty useless, you need to know which standard one uses , with maximum smoothing this would be +- 1 db this is taken at 1/3 octave , but this X over will be optimised any way while using CLio aim is +- 1 db 1/6 octave smoothing , unfortunately you cant see the colours of the screen in this save measurement , i ll make a short you tube vid when i have more time taking measurements
clio 1 by andromeda61, on Flickr
Various ways to measure the FR among things , more to come
In this graph i used a log chirp 10 hz - 20 kHz sweep its fast and the system works fine although its quite complicated in the beginning , you also need a FW 400 connection ( 6 pins ) .
This is a graph on a 40 degrees angle , you see this has virtually no high freq drop off , those top of the line scanspeak tweeters have a very large sweetspot , just what i like , i dont like to sit as a robot , you can virtually put the speakers straight and have a acceptable FR at the listening spot
You can see where the room influences kick in , it has 20 hz bassoutput -3 db , but getting good bass is more of an art then science this graph is workable from around 200-300 hz up
This speaker stays within +- 2 db under a 40 degree angle , most manufacturers dont mention the smoothing factor which makes mentioning the FR pretty useless, you need to know which standard one uses , with maximum smoothing this would be +- 1 db this is taken at 1/3 octave , but this X over will be optimised any way while using CLio aim is +- 1 db 1/6 octave smoothing , unfortunately you cant see the colours of the screen in this save measurement , i ll make a short you tube vid when i have more time taking measurements
clio 1 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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And some more, to start with unsmoothed until 1/2 octave smoothed graphs
clio4 by andromeda61, on Flickr
clio 3 by andromeda61, on Flickr
clio 5 by andromeda61, on Flickr
final 9-2 by andromeda61, on Flickr
clio4 by andromeda61, on Flickrclio 3 by andromeda61, on Flickrclio 5 by andromeda61, on Flickrfinal 9-2 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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Already more like it 1/6 octave smoothed no sign of the X over point which is around 1400 hz , the FR from which i started already sounded very good , what this sharpening will add is different/accurate nuances in sound
xpe2 by andromeda61, on Flickr
xpe2 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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I am going digital
DSC_0358 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0360 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0361 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0358 by andromeda61, on FlickrDSC_0360 by andromeda61, on FlickrDSC_0361 by andromeda61, on Flickr
I ll hook it up tomorrow , this one i bought because its versatile ,movies through the dac /computer usb connection , plus a lot of so called digital experts said meitner is good , so it better be i didnt even listen to it before i bought it
i didnt even listen to it before i bought it
The X over is entering its final stage , taken at 1,4 meter distance , tweeterheight ,on axxis, i didnt accomplish the aimed +- 1 db but i ended up +- 1,5 db (1/3 smoothed ) and +- 2 db 1/6 .(from 650 hz up )
But remember all those smooth flat lines you see everywhere they are not a representation of what is actually going on , especially with simpler speaker measurement programs , here its (smooth factor ) displayed in the graph so no tampering , you can see the graph consists of many tiny corrections thats what you want to see to get a real idea .
The woofer section is hard to measure because its a big system, it is connected in this graph , designing under 200/300 hz is more a experience thing imo also , and i dont measure in a anechoic chamber so only above 200-300 hz because of room interaction
The mid/tweeter X over is set at 1,7 kHz , you can see it in this graph its where the line goes up at 1,7 kHz thats where the tweeter comes in
clio 8 by andromeda61, on Flickr
clio 9 by andromeda61, on Flickr
But remember all those smooth flat lines you see everywhere they are not a representation of what is actually going on , especially with simpler speaker measurement programs , here its (smooth factor ) displayed in the graph so no tampering , you can see the graph consists of many tiny corrections thats what you want to see to get a real idea .
The woofer section is hard to measure because its a big system, it is connected in this graph , designing under 200/300 hz is more a experience thing imo also , and i dont measure in a anechoic chamber so only above 200-300 hz because of room interaction
The mid/tweeter X over is set at 1,7 kHz , you can see it in this graph its where the line goes up at 1,7 kHz thats where the tweeter comes in
clio 8 by andromeda61, on Flickrclio 9 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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And some more , these are taken at tweeter height on a 45 degrees angle and 2 meters distance , this is done to get more woofer output in the graph , you can see there is hardly any roll off present at 45 degrees angle it only goes down from 16 kHz which will make it kinda dull sounding at this angle .
Regarding the X over these are all first order slopes , and X over points measured at different angles might vary a bit , maybe its better to talk about a X over " area "
full system output, from this graph one could say there is 17 hz output - 3 db
45 degrees tw height by andromeda61, on Flickr
woofers disconnected
woofers diconnected by andromeda61, on Flickr
only tweeter output
only tweeter output by andromeda61, on Flickr
Full system without tweeter output
full system without tweeter output by andromeda61, on Flickr
75 degrees
75 degrees by andromeda61, on Flickr
90 degrees
90 degrees by andromeda61, on Flickr
Regarding the X over these are all first order slopes , and X over points measured at different angles might vary a bit , maybe its better to talk about a X over " area "
full system output, from this graph one could say there is 17 hz output - 3 db
45 degrees tw height by andromeda61, on Flickrwoofers disconnected
woofers diconnected by andromeda61, on Flickronly tweeter output
only tweeter output by andromeda61, on FlickrFull system without tweeter output
full system without tweeter output by andromeda61, on Flickr75 degrees
75 degrees by andromeda61, on Flickr90 degrees
90 degrees by andromeda61, on Flickr
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Now some beauty graphs this would be a XPE speaker hotspot while seated on a sofa , but one can see how different micspots reveal different speakeroutputs , this is approximately +- 1,5 db , 1/6 octave smoothed over a large part of the audioband
2,40 meter distance 85 centimeter height (ear level) on a 10 degree angle .
2, 40 meter n 10 degree angle tw height by andromeda61, on Flickr
and a little closer 1,90 meters
1,90 meter 10 degrees 85 cent. height by andromeda61, on Flickr
2,40 meter distance 85 centimeter height (ear level) on a 10 degree angle .
2, 40 meter n 10 degree angle tw height by andromeda61, on Flickrand a little closer 1,90 meters
1,90 meter 10 degrees 85 cent. height by andromeda61, on Flickr
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Here a pic of how the system looks in a closed state , normally a closed system( with comparable bassmembrane surface ) has a steeper slope / less extension , this system will have a Bassreflex pipe as well which will consist of 2 parts it ll be 160 mm long and can be extended 130 mm further as a part of loudspeaker/roomtuning .
All massive alu alloy construction then bead blasted /blank anodized .
I ll take in room measurements off all 3 possibilties , closed , 160 mm bassrelex pipe 290 mm bassreflex pipe , 1/6 octave smoothed , unaveraged as shown with room influence
BTW all the above graphs were taken with the x over wires through the mounting hole, without bassreflex pipe as i usually do to establish coil ,cap and resistor values
DSC_0362 by andromeda61, on Flickr
DSC_0363 by andromeda61, on Flickr
All massive alu alloy construction then bead blasted /blank anodized .
I ll take in room measurements off all 3 possibilties , closed , 160 mm bassrelex pipe 290 mm bassreflex pipe , 1/6 octave smoothed , unaveraged as shown with room influence
BTW all the above graphs were taken with the x over wires through the mounting hole, without bassreflex pipe as i usually do to establish coil ,cap and resistor values
DSC_0362 by andromeda61, on FlickrDSC_0363 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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And here a example of what the material of the bass extension pipe will look like , all high grade alu alloy , the top first 3 lettters of the brand are laser "engraved " , the bottom no, is purely engraved in the material .
A couple of weeks and the pipes are ready and so will be my ultimate speakerproject
DSC_0367 by andromeda61, on Flickr
A couple of weeks and the pipes are ready and so will be my ultimate speakerproject
DSC_0367 by andromeda61, on Flickr
And finally the bass reflex pipes are ready , i ll do FR measurements with the pipes in place( and if necessary change X over values ) , both the short and extended version as well as the closed speaker , its taken a while but finding a suitable / reliable company is part of the process .
I skipped on the laser engraved letters , pure beadblasted anodized aluminium alloy is just nice to look at , these pipes are machined from a solid block of high grade alu alloy : 12 mm thick , i ll post some pics of the pipes mounted later .
pics are taken with a smartphone, The result is a resonance free LS , except for the membranes off course a high precision soundmachine
20150626_182427 by andromeda61, on Flickr
20150626_182646 by andromeda61, on Flickr
20150626_182800 by andromeda61, on Flickr
20150626_204044 by andromeda61, on Flickr
I skipped on the laser engraved letters , pure beadblasted anodized aluminium alloy is just nice to look at , these pipes are machined from a solid block of high grade alu alloy : 12 mm thick , i ll post some pics of the pipes mounted later .
pics are taken with a smartphone
, The result is a resonance free LS , except for the membranes off course a high precision soundmachine 20150626_182427 by andromeda61, on Flickr20150626_182646 by andromeda61, on Flickr20150626_182800 by andromeda61, on Flickr20150626_204044 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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Glass of water /speakertest on house music (11 -12 o clock) is eardeafening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKksFz7wwQY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKksFz7wwQY&feature=youtu.be
I ve been comparing tapes this weekend , BASF SPR50 LH and per 528 , conclusion wow those sound good
Old broadcast tape i got for free , rachmaninov , tape is natural
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-V65O7yVsg
Old broadcast tape i got for free , rachmaninov , tape is natural
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-V65O7yVsg
Well just as you think people can take no more graphs , i ll post some more
Rigged the whole system up again today and measured with the short pipe .
Did some X over value changes to keep a better overal response on axxis and off axxis .
on axxis 1, 40 m distance by andromeda61, on Flickr
20 degrees by andromeda61, on Flickr
You see the area higher in the freq range improved , the bottom measurement is 20 degrees of axxis, see how much the room influences change the FR lower in the freq range by just moving the mike 20 degrees sideways off axxis
In the upper one +- 1 db tolerance is achieved (1 /6 oct ) roughly form 1 kHz to 20 kHz , which is extremely good /neutral , again not many systems will achieve that , i also still have a large suckout around 50 hz in my room
As far as bassoutput is concerned its hard to tell since i dont measure in an anechoic chamber , but i think they achieve flat to 20 hz , which is also not achieved by many despite the talk
Besides that the same woofers in an mdf enforced housing will not have the same transientresponse as can be achieved with modern composite materials.
The woofers are hexacone composites , very stiff /light material with a thick honeycombstructure and off course natural sounding , ill post pics form the big woofers membrane as soon as i take it out, to place the final filter inside ,....end of project X
Rigged the whole system up again today and measured with the short pipe .
Did some X over value changes to keep a better overal response on axxis and off axxis .
on axxis 1, 40 m distance by andromeda61, on Flickr20 degrees by andromeda61, on FlickrYou see the area higher in the freq range improved , the bottom measurement is 20 degrees of axxis, see how much the room influences change the FR lower in the freq range by just moving the mike 20 degrees sideways off axxis
In the upper one +- 1 db tolerance is achieved (1 /6 oct ) roughly form 1 kHz to 20 kHz , which is extremely good /neutral , again not many systems will achieve that , i also still have a large suckout around 50 hz in my room
As far as bassoutput is concerned its hard to tell since i dont measure in an anechoic chamber , but i think they achieve flat to 20 hz , which is also not achieved by many despite the talk
Besides that the same woofers in an mdf enforced housing will not have the same transientresponse as can be achieved with modern composite materials.
The woofers are hexacone composites , very stiff /light material with a thick honeycombstructure and off course natural sounding , ill post pics form the big woofers membrane as soon as i take it out, to place the final filter inside ,....end of project X
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Having lived with the XPE speakers for about some time , things that stand out are , the music /sound is not traceable to the speakers at all its just like you have some big solid stones in the living room and sound added to them .
Furthermore the speakers especially with the CAT JL 2 driving them need a dedicated listening room where one can play as loud as you want , its like driving my former DUC 1100 or a Ferrari through slow city traffic , They demand to be driven hard.
Dont miss the Thiel ceramic mid diamond tweeter at all neither do i miss the top of the line previously used scanspeak paper woofer , imo paper woofers arent capable of moving air as a 11 or 13 inch woofer should, to flexible, ETON woofers rule
Final X over with a mundorf cap set parallel to a duelund cap to achieve the needed value , i probably will upgrade to a duelund cast in the future but they are around 900 euro Retail per cap for the value i need, as shown and promised before the build ,no resistor /resistor network needed for efficiency allignment , i go for maximum resolution , and try to use the full efficiency the drivers can produce without dampening /softening with resistors
20151025_154733 by andromeda61, on Flickr
High value cast caps , the value i need are much smaller/cheaper luckily
PICT4246 by andromeda61, on Flickr
Furthermore the speakers especially with the CAT JL 2 driving them need a dedicated listening room where one can play as loud as you want , its like driving my former DUC 1100 or a Ferrari through slow city traffic , They demand to be driven hard.
Dont miss the Thiel ceramic mid diamond tweeter at all neither do i miss the top of the line previously used scanspeak paper woofer , imo paper woofers arent capable of moving air as a 11 or 13 inch woofer should, to flexible, ETON woofers rule
Final X over with a mundorf cap set parallel to a duelund cap to achieve the needed value , i probably will upgrade to a duelund cast in the future but they are around 900 euro Retail per cap for the value i need, as shown and promised before the build ,no resistor /resistor network needed for efficiency allignment , i go for maximum resolution , and try to use the full efficiency the drivers can produce without dampening /softening with resistors
20151025_154733 by andromeda61, on FlickrHigh value cast caps , the value i need are much smaller/cheaper luckily
PICT4246 by andromeda61, on Flickr
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