Fremer says 9" arms are inherently superior?

[Fsonicsmith]

I sincerely apologize to all.
But without surrendering my contrition, may I please point out how Mr. Fremer is prone to using on his own site much of the "verbal weaponry" I've been accused of using; e.g. see "If Charles Kirmuss's Record Cleaning Machine and Regimen Are Correct, Are Everyone Else's Wrong?"

 

[ddk]

I sincerely apologize to all.
But without surrendering my contrition, may I please point out how Mr. Fremer is prone to using on his own site much of the "verbal weaponry" I've been accused of using; e.g. see "If Charles Kirmuss's Record Cleaning Machine and Regimen Are Correct, Are Everyone Else's Wrong?"

Nothing to apologize for.

david

 

[NorthStar]

+1 ^

 

[Mike Lavigne]

David has remained quiet, Mike L and Mike F and Mike (Ferrari) too, Gary K, and several more members.
Where are they the real experts, the tonearms designers, the engineers, the scientists in the mastering art of analog music reproduction from turntables using various tonearm lengths?

we all value Mr. Fremer's participation differently. personally; his spot in the analog world carries weight with me. it's not that he's right, but that he has fought the fight.....for all of us. I'm not defending his (forum interaction) style, but I don't mind it. OTOH WBF has a free-for-all vibe that is important too. so any sort of sword blunting (to make Michael comfortable) is out of character for our forum as a group.

so I'm happy to let things develop as they may and no worries. Michael does not need WBF, and WBF does not need Michael. I might prefer that he would hang around, but I'm not stressing on it.

as far as the subject matter of tone arm length; I've owned a few arms, and was a close observer to Joel Durand's tone arm development with various length arms, and lots of material science investigations. if anything, I would say I have no strong opinion on the length issue.......but just a collection of anecdotal observations (which don't add any value here). maybe Joel has done enough variations to speak succinctly about this, but I don't really.

so I stayed out of this.

 

[tima]

we all value Mr. Fremer's participation differently. personally; his spot in the analog world carries weight with me. it's not that he's right, but that he has fought the fight.....for all of us. I'm not defending his (forum interaction) style, but I don't mind it. OTOH WBF has a free-for-all vibe that is important too. so any sort of sword blunting (to make Michael comfortable) is out of character for our forum as a group.

so I'm happy to let things develop as they may and no worries. Michael does not need WBF, and WBF does not need Michael. I might prefer that he would hang around, but I'm not stressing on it.

as far as the subject matter of tone arm length; I've owned a few arms, and was a close observer to Joel Durand's tone arm development with various length arms, and lots of material science investigations. if anything, I would say I have no strong opinion on the length issue.......but just a collection of anecdotal observations (which don't add any value here). maybe Joel has done enough variations to speak succinctly about this, but I don't really.

so I stayed out of this.

+1

 

[Steve Williams]

we all value Mr. Fremer's participation differently. personally; his spot in the analog world carries weight with me. it's not that he's right, but that he has fought the fight.....for all of us. I'm not defending his (forum interaction) style, but I don't mind it. OTOH WBF has a free-for-all vibe that is important too. so any sort of sword blunting (to make Michael comfortable) is out of character for our forum as a group.

so I'm happy to let things develop as they may and no worries. Michael does not need WBF, and WBF does not need Michael. I might prefer that he would hang around, but I'm not stressing on it.

as far as the subject matter of tone arm length; I've owned a few arms, and was a close observer to Joel Durand's tone arm development with various length arms, and lots of material science investigations. if anything, I would say I have no strong opinion on the length issue.......but just a collection of anecdotal observations (which don't add any value here). maybe Joel has done enough variations to speak succinctly about this, but I don't really.

so I stayed out of this.

But Mike

aren't all of the arms you own 12"

 

[NorthStar]

we all value Mr. Fremer's participation differently. personally; his spot in the analog world carries weight with me. it's not that he's right, but that he has fought the fight.....for all of us. I'm not defending his (forum interaction) style, but I don't mind it. OTOH WBF has a free-for-all vibe that is important too. so any sort of sword blunting (to make Michael comfortable) is out of character for our forum as a group.

so I'm happy to let things develop as they may and no worries. Michael does not need WBF, and WBF does not need Michael. I might prefer that he would hang around, but I'm not stressing on it.

as far as the subject matter of tone arm length; I've owned a few arms, and was a close observer to Joel Durand's tone arm development with various length arms, and lots of material science investigations. if anything, I would say I have no strong opinion on the length issue.......but just a collection of anecdotal observations (which don't add any value here). maybe Joel has done enough variations to speak succinctly about this, but I don't really.

so I stayed out of this.

Thanks Mike for your reply.

I'd rather feel welcome and comfortable than unwelcome and rejected.
I'm from Ron's school here, our administrator. The more high caliber shots the best for WBF.

Nobody needs anybody, everybody needs someone to love...the blues brothers.
Michael has everything he needs in spades. It was a fun and educative interlude while it lasted. I have zero clue about the future.

My own inexperienced opinion on arm lengths; the longest ones look more serious, more high class, sharper. I like TTs with three and four arms of various arm lengths; they look more scientific for audiophiles who love experimenting with various cartridges and arms on their favorite turntable.

And I'm all in for what audiophiles demand and for pushing the limits above the sky. If I wasn't I wouldn't be around.

* By the way, thank you also to make me aware of IE with YouTube videos; I adjusted my posts consequently by also including the links. I'm all for reaching and pleasing wider.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

But Mike

aren't all of the arms you own 12"

I only own one arm now; I sold my 12" standard composite arm wand standard Telos with my NVS a few months ago. I still own my 12" Sapphire Telos.

the best tone arms (and preference among those) I've owned are 12".

but this thread is not about preference or anecdotal tone arm experiences of various lengths, it's about whether a 9" tone arm has inherent performance advantages against longer tone arms. and only someone who has deep direct experience with same designs in various lengths, understanding any compromises the different lengths might be subject to, is going to really shed light on this question. or maybe someone with appropriate engineering/design experience or who is technically informed. and i'm none of those.

 

[NorthStar]

The OP, and Peter, and Francisco, and Michael Fremer touched on this very specific topic...mass, moment of inertia, tracking accuracy with less compromises and deviations possible.

 

[PeterA]

The OP, and Peter, and Francisco, and Michael Fremer touched on this very specific topic...mass, moment of inertia, tracking accuracy with less compromises and deviations possible.

In the end Bob, I think it depends on a number of factors, but the final execution is what matters most. A while back there was some discussion about the SME 30/2 with V arm and the SME 20/12 with 312S arm. The former is a 9" table/arm solution and the latter is a 12" table arm solution. Some people prefer one, others the other. Most of the discussions focused on preferences and the differences in the sound between the two combinations. There was little discussion about what was causing the differences in sound and why. Then the Model 30/12A with V-12 arm was developed and it seemed to present the music in a way which captured the best attributes of the other two tables. This is but one very anecdotal example, but it demonstrates how execution within the limits of cost, size and whatever other design considerations the developer has, is what really matters. The better the execution of the particular design, the better the results. Many agree that the 9" SAT arm is the best example of execution of the 9" platform, and think that is why it sounds better than all other arms, regardless of length. It will be interesting to see how Marc Gomez's 12" design compares, both in design and in sound.

Despite this thread being sidetracked a bit, we were able to touch on some of the factors that matter in the design of a tonearm. We are all here to learn, and in that sense, this thread has been helpful. I would love to read about other factors like bearing type, adjustability, and materials.

 

[NorthStar]

Thanks Peter, it has been educational. You guys are real explorers of the spinning world of turntables and tonearms of various lengths and cartridges and all that jazz.

I learned as much about tonearm lengths as the people using them. There is no absolute definition with all the complexities of system variations and equations.

It's a beautiful blue world we live in, the analog world surrounded by blue oceans and blue skies and blue music. I'm certain you all enjoy it in various lengths.

Thanks to all and to Michael.
Thanks to the OP who brought this fascinating subject to our attention.
Thanks to Folsom, to David, to Mike, to DaveyF for all their super honest feedback.
We are in the best company among all.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Despite this thread being sidetracked a bit, we were able to touch on some of the factors that matter in the design of a tonearm. We are all here to learn, and in that sense, this thread has been helpful. I would love to read about other factors like bearing type, adjustability, and materials.

Yes, Peter we are all here to have a good time and learn something. The subject itself was very interesting and actual, we had the presence of people with great experience and knowledge, we had great expectations. But I disagree with you and Bob - unfortunately IMHO we did not learn anything new in this thread - one of the most useless threads in WBF since long.

High end design is all about managing compromises and preferences - none of them were properly addressed in the thread. Some people will get the idea high-end is a jungle where anything is possible.

 

[NorthStar]

I agree with you Francisco, nothing was new that we didn't know already.
Circling around is the forte of human nature.

We need scientists who study the geometry and mathematics of tonearms, the engineers with knowledge and experience and with degrees in physics and matter.

We just need to attract them right here. These are the people from who we truly can advance more in our expedition towards the best analog system reproduction.
We're good, you are all super good, but there is always better in the analog world of music advancement.

Among audiophiles, music vinyl lovers, audio gurus, audio dealers, audio scientists, ...the limitless possibilities are there to further improve and learn upon.

We do what's best with what we have and who we are. Circling around is surely an art that we mastered well.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, Peter we are all here to have a good time and learn something. The subject itself was very interesting and actual, we had the presence of people with great experience and knowledge, we had great expectations. But I disagree with you and Bob - unfortunately IMHO we did not learn anything new in this thread - one of the most useless threads in WBF since long.

High end design is all about managing compromises and preferences - none of them were properly addressed in the thread. Some people will get the idea high-end is a jungle where anything is possible.

Well Fransisco, being more experienced that I, you may not have learned anything from this thread, but I learned the following: there is the argument that the sonic benefits of a lower moment of inertia and greater rigidity may outway the sonic benefits of lowering tracking distortion. I was not aware of that. Sure this is based on subjective preference and some hear it one way and others another way. I had assumed, based on my own listening experience, that the lowering of tracking error distortions outweighed the minor decrease in rigidity and increase in moment of inertia. David has a similar experience. I also did not know that many manufacturers are simply making longer arms to meet customer demand. That is a very interesting comment and begs the question of why customers are asking for longer arms.

And perhaps I learned the most from the absense or avoidance of clarifying some of the ideas. How does MF reconcile his review conclusion about the SME 312S arm and his preference for 9" arms. Why not comment on the 312S and V arms? Why not ask SME for a sample of each to investigate the issue of the article, namely does length matter? He implied that SME solved the "trade off" issues by designing a longer arm. Surely other designers can do the same. Why not do more direct comparisons so that there is more real data about this subject. MF is in the perfect position to do this, yet he did not address any of this while here. Perhaps he was not interested but the reader would have been better served IMO.

And most fundamental to the thread, we learned that the title of the thread is misleading because MF came on here to correct the inference and set the record straight. I do agree with you that we did not need thirty pages to get here.

 

[microstrip]

Well Fransisco, being more experienced that I, you may not have learned anything from this thread, but I learned the following: there is the argument that the sonic benefits of a lower moment of inertia and greater rigidity may outway the sonic benefits of lowering tracking distortion. I was not aware of that. Sure this is based on subjective preference and some hear it one way and others another way. I had assumed, based on my own listening experience, that the lowering of tracking error distortions outweighed the minor decrease in rigidity and increase in moment of inertia. David has a similar experience. (...)

I am not sure that David experience will endorse such simplistic conclusion, I got the idea that his reasons are much more complex. I would ask, for example, what does he prefer - a SME 3009-R (thin steel tube, steel knives) or a SME3012/II (light aluminum tube)?

 

[Fsonicsmith]

We need scientists who study the geometry and mathematics of tonearms, the engineers with knowledge and experience and with degrees in physics and matter.

We just need to attract them right here. These are the people from who we truly can advance more in our expedition towards the best analog system reproduction.
We're good, you are all super good, but there is always better in the analog world of music advancement.

Among audiophiles, music vinyl lovers, audio gurus, audio dealers, audio scientists, ...the limitless possibilities are there to further improve and learn upon.

We do what's best with what we have and who we are. Circling around is surely an art that we mastered well.

I respectfully disagree. Even in the highly scientific field of medicine, most practitioners will readily agree that practicing medicine is both a science and an art. Put four cardiologists in a room with an 80 year old man clearly suffering from congestive heart disease and then have them write down their suggested approach individually and compare notes afterward. They will all have different opinions as to the many possible diuretics, dietary regimens, additional testing, other medications, etc. I know this first-hand. I have been practicing med-mal defense for a long time. So we are discussing sound reproduction not from the standpoint of recording, but home play-back. To think that engineering and science can account for 100% or even 95% of how well a given tonearm design works is ignoring the obvious; the final arbiter is how it sounds and science and engineering can not entirely predict or answer why a given design sounds the way it does. And on that principle-yes we go round and round. There has been much talk about comparing a 9" and a 12" arm of the same manufacturer. That too is problematic. A given design like the SAT arm may very well sound best in its 9" format but that does not mean that a differently designed 12" arm can not sound every bit as good. I have followed Mike Fremer's writing for close to 30 years and he is as human as the rest of us. He can get carried away with his praise for a product he loves. He loves the SAT arm and he has a belief about the superiority of 9" arms that he expressed even before he discovered the SAT. I happen to think his conclusion that the arms he loves are superior largely due to their length is one of those, "yes, but that is only part of the story and your conclusion begs the question" type of scenarios. It is human to place attribution towards something you love; to say "I love my Tesla and it far superior to any driving experience I have had with any other car, it is obviously due to Elon Musk's engineering of electric motors". For someone of his stature to express it was worthy of comment in my humble opinion. I think someone else brought this up too, but MF's preference for 9" arms is no different than someone else's preference for state of the art direct drive tables. Those that espouse the virtues of direct drive can point to science too. That doesn't mean that those that prefer the sound character of idlers or belt drive are wrong. It does not mean that idlers and belt drive are objectively inferior.

 

[PeterA]

I think someone else brought this up too, but MF's preference for 9" arms is no different than someone else's preference for state of the art direct drive tables. Those that espouse the virtues of direct drive can point to science too. That doesn't mean that those that prefer the sound character of idlers or belt drive are wrong. It does not mean that idlers and belt drive are objectively inferior.

Interesting analogy, and I get your point. I think it is difficult to even begin to generalize about turntable drive types when there are so many different designs. Execution, or implementation of the idea is what matters most, IMO. Take David's AS2000. Is it anything like a Linn Sondek, or SME for example? Rigidity, moment of inertia, bearing type, material choice, it all matters. The latest pivoted linear tracking arms like the Schroder, Thales and KLAudio do not look like they have very rigid armtubes, and I wonder about all of the moving parts. Yet, I a sure their designers can write papers about the designs just as Marc Gomez wrote about his.

I do find it pretty interesting that Durand's new prototype is a gimbal design and more than 9" long.

 

[PeterA]

I am not sure that David experience will endorse such simplistic conclusion, I got the idea that his reasons are much more complex. I would ask, for example, what does he prefer - a SME 3009-R (thin steel tube, steel knives) or a SME3012/II (light aluminum tube)?

You may be right. I don't know why specifically David prefers the 3012 to the 3009. Perhaps the designs have more differences than just length. And there are variations in materials, as you point out. My comment is based on what I thought is David's preference of the 3012R to the 3009R and they both have steel arm tubes, as far as I know.

 

[NorthStar]

I respectfully disagree. Even in the highly scientific field of medicine, most practitioners will readily agree that practicing medicine is both a science and an art. Put four cardiologists in a room with an 80 year old man clearly suffering from congestive heart disease and then have them write down their suggested approach individually and compare notes afterward. They will all have different opinions as to the many possible diuretics, dietary regimens, additional testing, other medications, etc. I know this first-hand. I have been practicing med-mal defense for a long time. So we are discussing sound reproduction not from the standpoint of recording, but home play-back. To think that engineering and science can account for 100% or even 95% of how well a given tonearm design works is ignoring the obvious; the final arbiter is how it sounds and science and engineering can not entirely predict or answer why a given design sounds the way it does. And on that principle-yes we go round and round. There has been much talk about comparing a 9" and a 12" arm of the same manufacturer. That too is problematic. A given design like the SAT arm may very well sound best in its 9" format but that does not mean that a differently designed 12" arm can not sound every bit as good. I have followed Mike Fremer's writing for close to 30 years and he is as human as the rest of us. He can get carried away with his praise for a product he loves. He loves the SAT arm and he has a belief about the superiority of 9" arms that he expressed even before he discovered the SAT. I happen to think his conclusion that the arms he loves are superior largely due to their length is one of those, "yes, but that is only part of the story and your conclusion begs the question" type of scenarios. It is human to place attribution towards something you love; to say "I love my Tesla and it far superior to any driving experience I have had with any other car, it is obviously due to Elon Musk's engineering of electric motors". For someone of his stature to express it was worthy of comment in my humble opinion. I think someone else brought this up too, but MF's preference for 9" arms is no different than someone else's preference for state of the art direct drive tables. Those that espouse the virtues of direct drive can point to science too. That doesn't mean that those that prefer the sound character of idlers or belt drive are wrong. It does not mean that idlers and belt drive are objectively inferior.

We are here to explore the art of music reproduction/high fidelity from analog turntables matched with the best tonearm's lengths. Michael F. is an audio writer/reviewer for many years and an ardent turntable everything related explorer. He is like the Elon Musk of efficient turntable, searching for the best lengths in tonearms. He provided us with an expert who wrote a very convincing paper, in my opinion, and it deserves scientific analysis to further improve our knowledge and discuss wisely with a view on all perspectives and variations.

I'll take the view of professional engineers seriously.