Done with digital

[tima]

One of my favorite Mahler albums on vinyl is the legendary Solti Decca recording of Symphony No 2 with soprano Heather Harper. In the first few seconds of this mammoth work, Mahler begins with growling double basses and cellos. On vinyl, the sound is astonishingly lifelike.

Thanks for your follow-up. Excellent.

I don't know if you've heard Bernstein's 1980's series on DG, but your words made me think of it. The opening with bass and cellos is stunning. I have the Analgphonic reissue on digital and it delivers what one expects - no blob of sound here.

 

[bonzo75]

Not sang by Fischer Dieskau, but I listened to Matthias Goerne and Markus Hinterhaüser. It is just my opinion, but no sound reproduction system can transmit the gloomy and sad atmosphere of Winterreise as a top life performance in a good concert hall. As you I was fortunate to get a good place at about 20 feet. Music is not just the physical sound, the soul of the performers is also part of it.

I have been to 6 winterreise, one recently in May and once for the other two: schwanengasang and die schone mullerin. The Peter Schrier Richter gives me great pleasure on some systems. The Fischer Dieskau is probably a better vocal performance but I don't like it as much as it is studio not live ambience. The Schrier performance is live and will captured on Melodiya (the other labels it is on are not as good)

 

[audiobomber]

One of my favorite Mahler albums on vinyl is the legendary Solti Decca recording of Symphony No 2 with soprano Heather Harper. In the first few seconds of this mammoth work, Mahler begins with growling double basses and cellos. On vinyl, the sound is astonishingly lifelike. I recall an old TAS review by Mike Fremer (welcome back to TAS, Mike, we missed ya!), who compared this legendary recording to the then latest EMI digital recording that critics were raving about by Simon Rattle with the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, before he moved to conduct the Berlin Philharmonic (and now he’s back in the UK). As Fremer put it, somewhat sarcastically, in this precious few initial seconds of the piece that sets up the ominous atmosphere for the fabulous symphony, one hears instead of growling double basses and cellos, a “blob of sound” that moves from one channel to the other. That about sums up what I hear with far too many modern digital recordings of the famous symphonies of the classical repertoire. And I’m puzzled as to why. Why does the modern Rattle recording of Mahler 2 sound so much worse than the great analog Solti recording on Decca. It doesn’t make sense. Digital should sound way way better, but except it doesn’t, although as with the legendary Mercury Living Presence series, one can make the remastering sound very good. Even for the MLP series, I recently bought some test pressings of the famous vinyl releases of the MLP albums released by Michael Hobson for Classic Records. To my ears, they completely blow away the digital remastering in terms of their tonal richness and sense of ambience. Something really striking I’ve noticed on many CDs is the almost complete absence of ambient space. This of course makes sense. Ambient noise of the recording venue is very low in level, where digital resolution is likely to be the weakest. I recall an old Gramophone review of the SME 30 turntable where the reviewer compared a series of vinyl albums on EMI, Decca etc. with their digital remastering, and concluded the SME was far better at revealing the ambience of the original venue than the digital remastering. I mean, Gramophone is about as old fashioned and stodgy as you can get for audiophile reviews. This magazine is largely devoted to reviewing classical albums and has been around for many decades. These guys are not audiophiles!

View attachment 96138

Ever hear of paragraphs? They make reading much easier.

 

[Phantom-Audio]

Get a Playback Design DAC and you will never look for another DAC again!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Get a Playback Design DAC and you will never look for another DAC again!

Lol , my ex girlfriend used to say that about herself.
Look at me and you ll never look at another women again

 

[ACHiPo]

One of my favorite Mahler albums on vinyl is the legendary Solti Decca recording of Symphony No 2 with soprano Heather Harper. In the first few seconds of this mammoth work, Mahler begins with growling double basses and cellos. On vinyl, the sound is astonishingly lifelike. I recall an old TAS review by Mike Fremer (welcome back to TAS, Mike, we missed ya!), who compared this legendary recording to the then latest EMI digital recording that critics were raving about by Simon Rattle with the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, before he moved to conduct the Berlin Philharmonic (and now he’s back in the UK). As Fremer put it, somewhat sarcastically, in this precious few initial seconds of the piece that sets up the ominous atmosphere for the fabulous symphony, one hears instead of growling double basses and cellos, a “blob of sound” that moves from one channel to the other. That about sums up what I hear with far too many modern digital recordings of the famous symphonies of the classical repertoire. And I’m puzzled as to why. Why does the modern Rattle recording of Mahler 2 sound so much worse than the great analog Solti recording on Decca. It doesn’t make sense. Digital should sound way way better, but except it doesn’t, although as with the legendary Mercury Living Presence series, one can make the remastering sound very good. Even for the MLP series, I recently bought some test pressings of the famous vinyl releases of the MLP albums released by Michael Hobson for Classic Records. To my ears, they completely blow away the digital remastering in terms of their tonal richness and sense of ambience. Something really striking I’ve noticed on many CDs is the almost complete absence of ambient space. This of course makes sense. Ambient noise of the recording venue is very low in level, where digital resolution is likely to be the weakest. I recall an old Gramophone review of the SME 30 turntable where the reviewer compared a series of vinyl albums on EMI, Decca etc. with their digital remastering, and concluded the SME was far better at revealing the ambience of the original venue than the digital remastering. I mean, Gramophone is about as old fashioned and stodgy as you can get for audiophile reviews. This magazine is largely devoted to reviewing classical albums and has been around for many decades. These guys are not audiophiles!

View attachment 96138

Added this to my shopping list. I'm not finding the cover you posted. How do different pressings/releases compare? The ones I'm finding are below.

 

[tima]

Added this to my shopping list. I'm not finding the cover you posted. How do different pressings/releases compare? The ones I'm finding are below.
View attachment 96152 View attachment 96153

Gustav Mahler, Heather Harper, Helen Watts, The London Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti - Symphony No.2 Resurrection (Vinyl, UK, 1966) For Sale | Discogs

Shop the 1966 UK Vinyl release of Symphony No.2 Resurrection by Gustav Mahler, Heather Harper, Helen Watts, The London Symphony Orchestra, Georg Solti at Discogs.

www.discogs.com

Reissue:

Mahler / London Symphony, Georg Solti - Symphony No.2

View credits, reviews, tracks and shop for the 1998 Vinyl release of "Symphony No.2" on Discogs.

www.discogs.com

 

[ACHiPo]

Thanks Tim. I ordered a copy of the reissue as the original seems unavailable in the US. Hopefully it’s ok.

 

[tima]

Thanks Tim. I ordered a copy of the reissue as the original seems unavailable in the US. Hopefully it’s ok.

It's the problem of posting to places like discogs for specific records -- others can get there before you. There was a mint original for sale when I posted the link.

There was a wave of Mahler re-releases a few years back, including several complete or near-complete cycles. San Francisco w/ Tilson-Thomas, both Bernstein cycles, four? Solti performances, ... These have largely been bought up and currently we're seeing the last of the mint. So ...

 

[PhP]

I am done with digital. After having suffered thru every digital format available over the years, and never liking the sound of any of it, I am putting all my time, money and effort into my analog front-ends (turntable and tapedeck).

How many of you have a similar story to tell?

Hi
I know a lot of audiophile (even some manufacturers) that prefer analog. Analog vs digital is a long story. I had awesome vinyl playback system in the past (25 years ago) that outperform digital, in music recreation. For 5 years the story is quite different, if some digital gears still sound a bit cool, not enough there and like real instruments say volume, harmonics..., some systems are now that good that analog is not better, it's different (I must say that the best digital are not the more expensive). The best analog have speed, dynamic, harmonic richness and details to die for at an expensive cost with imperfect discs.
My answer is not to say which is better, I only tell that I experience absolute music with digital if it is very good and then carefully pushed to it's limit with associated feet, power cable, digital cables and more.
Philippe

 

[SeagoatLeo]

With 28,500 LPs and 7,000 CDs, I do not favor either format over the other. I am at a point where I have excellent sound from either source, so much so, I often mistake one for the other. I have many lush, full bodied, wide open sounding CDs and quiet or silent surfaced, dynamic and high resolution LPs. However, on balance, I do have many more superior sounding CDs than LPs percentagewise. It is easier and cheaper to collect great sounding CDs than LPs as well as playback idiosyncrasies. That's my two cents with high end equipment (and listening room more expensive than most high end watches).

 

[ACHiPo]

Thanks Tim. I ordered a copy of the reissue as the original seems unavailable in the US. Hopefully it’s ok.

@tima the reissue sounds very good and is very engaging to me. Thanks for the recommendation. My Kuzma14 and SoundSmith seem to extract the emotion nicely with no drama except what Mahler intended. Definitely no blob of sound.

 

[ACHiPo]

IMHO they are not comparable - my hearing works differently in life or in reproduced sound. Read Wilma Cozart Fine on the subject: (a very interesting interview, although dating from 1995) https://www.kcstudio.com/wilmacozartfine2.html

BD: Do you ever feel that you’re in competition with live concerts?


WCF: No, I don’t really, I think they compliment each other, in all honesty, and in fact I can’t imagine that anybody would really think that, because going to a concert in one kind of experience, very rich, very wonderful, and listening to a recording is another. Just think about it. If you do a concert and see an artist there on the stage you see this being done live and it’s marvelous, you love the artist you love the piece. If you buy a recording, even if the same artist has recorded it, you can go back and study it, you can play it, you can track different places, you can hear things as many times as you want to. Then if you enjoy it, you can listen to it any way you want to - in your pajamas, after dinner, when you first get up in the morning, whatever. If you also want to know how another artist might play it or interpret it, you can go buy another record. You might not be able to hear that artist again. The person might not be around anymore, might not be performing anymore or might not be performing in your city for several years. With records, I find they compliment each other.

I find if I see/hear classical music live I can then get much more emotion out of recorded music. Listening to recordings without the context of a live performance is generally just a hifi event for me—good sound, impressive dynamics, maybe some goosebumps, but no real emotional connection.

 

[ACHiPo]

Thanks for your follow-up. Excellent.

I don't know if you've heard Bernstein's 1980's series on DG, but your words made me think of it. The opening with bass and cellos is stunning. I have the Analgphonic reissue on digital and it delivers what one expects - no blob of sound here.

View attachment 96142

Ok @tima now I’m down a Mahler rabbit hole! I’m enjoying the Decca/Solti so much I want to try a digital version for grins. Do you have any experience with this version? I‘ve had great experience with HDTT sounding very live. This seems to have great reviews.

Mahler Resurrection Symphony No. 2 - Hermann Scherchen Conducts the VS

Title: Mahler: Resurrection Symphony No. 2 Artist(s): Concertante: Hermann Scherchen & The Vienna State Opera OrchestraMimi Coertse (Soprano), Lucretia West (Contralto) & Vienna State Academy Chamber Choir The source used for Transfer: Recording Info: Recorded by Westminster Records in 1958 1...

www.highdeftapetransfers.ca

 

[tima]

Ok @tima now I’m down a Mahler rabbit hole! I’m enjoying the Decca/Solti so much I want to try a digital version for grins. Do you have any experience with this version? I‘ve had great experience with HDTT sounding very live. This seems to have great reviews.

Mahler Resurrection Symphony No. 2 - Hermann Scherchen Conducts the VS

Title: Mahler: Resurrection Symphony No. 2 Artist(s): Concertante: Hermann Scherchen & The Vienna State Opera OrchestraMimi Coertse (Soprano), Lucretia West (Contralto) & Vienna State Academy Chamber Choir The source used for Transfer: Recording Info: Recorded by Westminster Records in 1958 1...

www.highdeftapetransfers.ca

I don't have experience with that Scherchen performance -- at least not that I'm remembering. You can check my Mahler thread on AA (link in signature.)

Digital-wise, for the 2nd I'd recommend Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Symph Orch on Channel Classics. On vinyl reissue I suggest the Bernstein 1980's ('86?) 2nd on Analogphonic. Lot's of good 2nds to explore.

 

[ACHiPo]

I don't have experience with that Scherchen performance -- at least not that I'm remembering. You can check my Mahler thread on AA (link in signature.)

Digital-wise, for the 2nd I'd recommend Ivan Fischer and the Budapest Symph Orch on Channel Classics. On vinyl reissue I suggest the Bernstein 1980's ('86?) 2nd on Analogphonic. Lot's of good 2nds to explore.

I downloaded the Scherchen and just started listening to it now. Definitely a different interpretation based on 3 min in. Clean recording so far.

Thanks for the link!

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Listening to recordings without the context of a live performance is generally just a hifi event for me—good sound, impressive dynamics, maybe some goosebumps, but no real emotional connection.

...this is an interesting and very important statement.

It goes a long way toward explaining why the wine, consumed in the Algarve, looking at the ocean, tastes so much better than the "same" bottle on the back deck. And Sweetie did NOT realize it was the same wine until I told her. She's a scientist and was actually a bit annoyed by my primitive experiment.

But no kidding, adding other sensory and psychological information can have a profound impact on the experience, IMO.

 

[HughP3]

...this is an interesting and very important statement.

It goes a long way toward explaining why the wine, consumed in the Algarve, looking at the ocean, tastes so much better than the "same" bottle on the back deck. And Sweetie did NOT realize it was the same wine until I told her. She's a scientist and was actually a bit annoyed by my primitive experiment.

But no kidding, adding other sensory and psychological information can have a profound impact on the experience, IMO.

So very true. Dimming the lights really focuses my hearing even tho i close my eyes. Its a strange phenomenon

 

[tima]

I downloaded the Scherchen and just started listening to it now. Definitely a different interpretation based on 3 min in. Clean recording so far.

Thanks for the link!

Another Mahler 2nd to look for on your streaming service is Otto Klemperer's fabulous 1963 recording -- one of the best. I don't know what stuff looks like on streamers. The Klemperer had several album covers.


Pathe Marconi (French EMI). 2C181-00570/1


ANGEL 3634


ASD 2691-92 or SLS-806

 

[facten]

Over the last couple of years I have been enjoying listening to music in my main system through a Mojo Audio EVO DAC and Simaudio 260D CD Transport. That said, I decided to arrange with Colin King to make the 3 hour drive up to visit his Gestalt Audio in Nashville to listen to the top of the line Tron Electric Atlantic GT DAC and, the Circle Labs A200 integrated amp, and Frontiers Audio 300B amp. Before listening to the Tron Colin set, in my words, a baseline by spinning a few tunes on the vinyl rig he had set up; believe it was TW Acustic. Very nice, natural and engaging sound IMHO. I didn't have in mind an intent to listen to a CD player, but he had a Neodio Origine 2 hooked up in the same system as the vinyl and suggested I take a listen to it. I won't suggest that the Neodio surpast the sound of his vinyl , but to my ears the Neodio nonetheless drew me into the music with refined tone, timber, texture and soundstaging; it was far from anything one might suggest is lacking in digital. I then listened to the Tron Atlantic DAC in the system it was original setup in, as well as in the same system as the one incorporating the Neodio. The Tron was driven by an Aurrender so obviously a different transport was also influencing the sound. To my ears both the Neodio and the Tron engaged me and produced excellent sound, though different. To my ears the Neodio being slightly romantic while the Tron leaning towards transparency. I could live with either but decided that the Neodio was more to my listening taste. Luckily for me Colin is a really nice guy and agreed to let me take his 2 month old demo instead of making me wait 2 or so weeks for a new one that is in transit from France. I installed the Neodio in my main system this morning and I am enjoying the music even more-so. I swapped the Mojo and Simaudio into my 2nd system. If you spin CDs and have the chance to audition the Neodio Origine 2 I think that it is worth a listen to see if it suits your tastes; nothing to lose.

A side note, I really liked the Frontiers Audio 300B but changes to amps will wait for another day.

Thank you again Colin for a very worthwhile visit and your hospitality.