Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[microstrip]

I agree DDK may have done a lot for you and helped you with the selection that you made and the one that you defined in your thread however he didn't teach you how to fish.
What he did is he strapped you into the passenger seat of a car as he drove around the track, you didn't drive and I mean this with all due respect .
I had this discussion here before like when Wilson teaches a sales guy the WASP method, the method is valid but knowing how to use the method, how to listen and what to listen for is something that takes time. It is not simple and singular and applicable to every room and every situation.
I have seen this first hand over and over. Everyone wants a clear formula, one that is totally easy and totally works every single time. Guess what it doesn't and learning to use knowledge is just as important as the knowledge. We all hear we earn how to listen and the target is not universal as we see here every single day.

Even worst is the situation of the so called Sumiko method of speaker placement. We are told by them that the text floating in the net is wrong and misleading, but they keep the "true" version for themselves. I understand that people should be free to protect their intellectual property and not releasing, but in the long term they are harming the high-end market.

Speaker placement is a key point in a system. In this aspect, people owning corner speakers are lucky!

 

[PeterA]

Apparently he also tried to teach you how to fish. But it seems you did not read or practice the book.

I have no doubts you learned a lot from DDK. Unfortunately your or his reports were all nice and interesting narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear and have no application to the great majority of the audiophiles. But is always nice to learn about this hobby.




My fault, I should have been more clear. I was addressing fish in the ocean, not the few fish in our house fish tanks.



(...) Yes, Jim signed my copy of his book.

Apparently he also tried to teach you how to fish. But it seems you did not read or practice the book.

I have no doubts you and others learned a lot from DDK. Unfortunately your or his reports were all nice and interesting narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear and have no application to the great majority of the audiophiles. But learning is always a good thing in this hobby.

I had a bit of trouble following your post.

I spoke to Jim about his method and what service he provides. When we worked on my turntable, he simply listened and told me where to stop the VTA. He wanted to have all other aspects already set before he arrived. David taught me exactly what to listen for VTA, but also VTF and antiskate, belt length and tension, torque, etc. The contrast around the vinyl set up could not have been more stark. Jim did explain the listening seat location using his measuring tools and explained what to look for for frequencies below 300 Hz. I moved my speakers while Jim listened from the seat. He did not explain what to listen for with the speaker movements, but he declared when he was satisfied with the sound. He did explain the tradeoffs with the subs versus no subs. We opted for no subs. When I asked him about the learning aspect and what to listen for, he told me that that was the reason for the second book and music CD. He implied that it would be more of a tutorial than was his RoomPlay service or the first book. I did find his first book helpful and read it before I decided to hire him. We also had interesting conversations about the industry over dinner.

You can image what you want. I worked with both gentlemen and can say that they have different approaches. David helps friends and customers. He does not provide the same service that Jim does. The student has a role too, that is true. Does he want to learn or does he want things set up for him by someone else. Both are fine. A good friend once told me that when the student is ready to learn, the teacher will present himself.

Some of the lessons I learned have actually served me well while helping some friends to set up turntables and speakers, and most recently, room acoustics in conjunction with speaker orientation. Good lessons need not be simply "narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear." Often, learned lessons and experiences can have good application to other audiophiles with all sorts of gear.

 

[PeterA]

I agree DDK may have done a lot for you and helped you with the selection that you made and the one that you defined in your thread however he didn't teach you how to fish.
What he did is he strapped you into the passenger seat of a car as he drove around the track, you didn't drive and I mean this with all due respect .
I had this discussion here before like when Wilson teaches a sales guy the WASP method, the method is valid but knowing how to use the method, how to listen and what to listen for is something that takes time. It is not simple and singular and applicable to every room and every situation.
I have seen this first hand over and over. Everyone wants a clear formula, one that is totally easy and totally works every single time. Guess what it doesn't and learning to use knowledge is just as important as the knowledge. We all hear we earn how to listen and the target is not universal as we see here every single day.

That is fine Elliot. Well, DDK was not driving any car, and I was not strapped in going around a track. David made some suggestions over the phone and encouraged me to more things around and listen. We went step by step until the speakers were incompletely different positions, the room treatments were reduced, then removed, the equipment supports were changed, the power lines were changed, accessories removed, turntable adjusted. All this without David being in the room. No gear changes to the core system. No money spent. Lots of lessons learned. Then, having reached what I thought was the end with that gear, I asked if he could find a rare, mint condition vintage turntable for me. Then, more leaning began.

I do not have your knowledge or experience. I have helped friends set up turntables and position speakers and they say that the results were an improvement. The other evening I helped a friend sort out his speaker positioning and room acoustics. He thanked me afterwords and told me he is grateful. I am sure someone else with more experience and knowledge might have been able to do more. We had a fun evening and both learned something. For me, all of this is just one of a few hobbies, and it is fun.

I think each of us here has spent years in the hobby learning stuff.

 

[microstrip]

I had a bit of trouble following your post. (...)

I see it. Sorry.

Jim did explain the listening seat location using his measuring tools and explained what to look for for frequencies below 300 Hz. I moved my speakers while Jim listened from the seat. He did not explain what to listen for with the speaker movements, but he declared when he was satisfied with the sound.

Well, it all clearly written in the first book. Along several points and many pages. Further discussed in the excellent Quarter Notes.

He did explain the tradeoffs with the subs versus no subs. We opted for no subs. When I asked him about the learning aspect and what to listen for, he told me that that was the reason for the second book and music CD.

Again we can find it easily in the book. Probably it could be more detail and precise, with selected examples - they would probably be in the second book. For me suggestions such as "mono female with presence" were enough. Did you watch the DVDs? At that time I had to buy a NTCS DVD player to watch them, our player was just PAL!

He implied that it would be more of a tutorial than was his RoomPlay service or the first book. I did find his first book helpful and read it before I decided to hire him. We also had interesting conversations about the industry over dinner.

Yes, we were told about that. Jim was a contributor to several audio forums, not just WBF - the posts stay there are easy to find.

You can image what you want. I worked with both gentlemen and can say that they have different approaches. David helps friends and customers. He does not provide the same service that Jim does.

Well, I reached such conclusion long ago ...

 

[sbnx]

Even worst is the situation of the so called Sumiko method of speaker placement. We are told by them that the text floating in the net is wrong and misleading, but they keep the "true" version for themselves. I understand that people should be free to protect their intellectual property and not releasing, but in the long term they are harming the high-end market.

Speaker placement is a key point in a system. In this aspect, people owning corner speakers are lucky!

I don't know if the Sumiko method would be classified as a secret. There is a guy in Denver (Bob), that has a web-based business (The Art of Rational Speaker Placement) for speaker setup. He claims to have been trained in the "Sumiko Method" back in "the day" and has a pdf explaining how to setup a pair of speakers using this method.

I don't see anything nefarious or mystical going on here. I would suggest that if someone hasn't already, that they give it a go. The worst thing that happens is they enhance their listening skill.

If you want to go another step or two farther, check out the article that Roy Gregory wrote and is published on the Nordost web page. Here is the link:

ttps://www.nordost.com/downloads-helpfulGuides-info-tips.php

Scroll down until you see "speaker Setup Guide"

 

[Elliot G.]

hink each of us here has spent years in the hobby learning stuff.

So now you are saying that you can do what Jim Smith can do ? That after doing this one particular system you are an expert?
I'm sorry not buying that . Learning stuff is not a lifetime of experience.

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't know if the Sumiko method would be classified as a secret. There is a guy in Denver (Bob), that has a web-based business (The Art of Rational Speaker Placement) for speaker setup. He claims to have been trained in the "Sumiko Method" back in "the day" and has a pdf explaining how to setup a pair of speakers using this method.

I don't see anything nefarious or mystical going on here. I would suggest that if someone hasn't already, that they give it a go. The worst thing that happens is they enhance their listening skill.

If you want to go another step or two farther, check out the article that Roy Gregory wrote and is published on the Nordost web page. Here is the link:

ttps://www.nordost.com/downloads-helpfulGuides-info-tips.php

Scroll down until you see "speaker Setup Guide"

BTW knowing the method is not the same thing as knowing how to use the method and getting the result. One still has to listen and comprehend the observations.

 

[PeterA]

So now you are saying that you can do what Jim Smith can do ? That after doing this one particular system you are an expert?
I'm sorry not buying that . Learning stuff is not a lifetime of experience.

I’m not saying that at all. Why are you making stuff up? I’m saying that we have all learned stuff in this hobby over the years as we have been enjoying it. You don’t have to buy anything as I’m not selling anything. I am sharing the fact that I have learned things from other people and from working on my various systems over the years. I suspect that is true for many if not all of us here.

 

[sbnx]

BTW knowing the method is not the same thing as knowing how to use the method and getting the result. One still has to listen and comprehend the observations.

Of course. Speaker setup is an experimental endeavor. One has to position the speakers, listen, identify something (most likely something that doesn't sound "correct"), move the speaker to correct this and listen again to assess what the movement achieved. Repeat until you are happy with the overall result.

What is in the pdf is an explanation of what to do and what to listen for. (How to use the method) It only uses one song -- Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes. The individual will still have to perform the necessary movements and assessments. There is no getting around the fact that work must be done. I think anyone serious about getting their system to sound better could learn and execute this system in a weekend.

 

[PeterA]

BTW knowing the method is not the same thing as knowing how to use the method and getting the result. One still has to listen and comprehend the observations.

I agree. There is no substitute for actually doing the work. It helps to have a target, a reference, a goal against which to judge, so that one can understand if he is on the right track as he experiments with changes and is making progress.

 

[treitz3]

Of course. Speaker setup is an experimental endeavor. One has to position the speakers, listen, identify something (most likely something that doesn't sound "correct"), move the speaker to correct this and listen again to assess what the movement achieved. Repeat until you are happy with the overall result.

What is in the pdf is an explanation of what to do and what to listen for. (How to use the method) It only uses one song -- Ballad of the Runaway Horse by Jennifer Warnes. The individual will still have to perform the necessary movements and assessments. There is no getting around the fact that work must be done. I think anyone serious about getting their system to sound better could learn and execute this system in a weekend.

Eh, a weekend if they really apply themselves and have a plethora of experience already. For someone just starting out? It could take months to achieve the same results.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

I don't know if the Sumiko method would be classified as a secret. There is a guy in Denver (Bob), that has a web-based business (The Art of Rational Speaker Placement) for speaker setup. He claims to have been trained in the "Sumiko Method" back in "the day" and has a pdf explaining how to setup a pair of speakers using this method.

I don't see anything nefarious or mystical going on here. I would suggest that if someone hasn't already, that they give it a go. The worst thing that happens is they enhance their listening skill.

If you want to go another step or two farther, check out the article that Roy Gregory wrote and is published on the Nordost web page. Here is the link:

ttps://www.nordost.com/downloads-helpfulGuides-info-tips.php

Scroll down until you see "speaker Setup Guide"

Well we can find a few versions of the Sumiko method in the net, none written by the creators.

I researched the subject a lot when owning the Aida's. I can't find the source anymore but the called Master Set not the John Hunter method, as used by him, Stirling and a few trained dealers. The Sumiko method is called MASTERS and John once referred that although these texts are based on his method they have differences enough to prevent it be applied with high reliability. I would love to hear more about the subject.

 

[Lee]

One thing I have learned about Jim is that he has an intuitive feel for what aspect to work on in any situation. It takes critical listening skills to hear the weak spots and experience to know what prescription to try first. It really takes decades of experience setting up thousands of systems to get to that level. Elliot is likely up there too based on hearing systems he has set up.

I think many audiophiles look at setup experts and think, “well that’s not rocket science, I can get close by reading a few guides or watching some YouTube videos.”

I initially felt this way too. But after hanging out with Jim and watching him do RoomPlay sessions and setup systems, I realized there is a lot to it. A good rule of thumb is that everything matters. It takes a lot to get the system to sound natural and effortless. It feels at times like there are a million things that can lower noise and get the most out of the room.

 

[Amir]

If you read recent interview in gy8 website :

https://gy8.eu/blog/in-discussion-stirling-trayle-of-audio-systems-optimised/

Stirling Trayle and John hunter founded the sumiko master setup method (for speaker placement) and some others like Bob learned the sumiko method.

Stirling Trayle advanced the basic sumiko method in many years so now his experience is very valuable. I believe no one can compete with him in this regard.

 

[microstrip]

One thing I have learned about Jim is that he has an intuitive feel for what aspect to work on in any situation. It takes critical listening skills to hear the weak spots and experience to know what prescription to try first. It really takes decades of experience setting up thousands of systems to get to that level. Elliot is likely up there too based on hearing systems he has set up.

I think many audiophiles look at setup experts and think, “well that’s not rocket science, I can get close by reading a few guides or watching some YouTube videos.”

I initially felt this way too. But after hanging out with Jim and watching him do RoomPlay sessions and setup systems, I realized there is a lot to it. A good rule of thumb is that everything matters. It takes a lot to get the system to sound natural and effortless. It feels at times like there are a million things that can lower noise and get the most out of the room.

Lee,

Great writing, but this is the type of post that can be highly destructive to the high-end and to its future. Accepting that the supreme and indispensable knowledge of something is centered in half a dozen people who fail to transmit it is accepting the close last dawn of it.

IMO the hobby does not aim at supreme perfection, it aims at entertainment and enjoyment of music with high quality. And IMO although "a good rule of thumb is that everything matters" at some time you have to pick what matters to you and forget about all else.

Please understand I am not commenting on the expertise and value of the people you addressed, just a general comment on the set up of systems.

My posts on the subject are surely influenced by my admiration for Jim Smith lifetime work.

 

[sbnx]

Eh, a weekend if they really apply themselves and have a plethora of experience already. For someone just starting out? It could take months to achieve the same results.

Tom

It definitely depends. Certainly someone who just bought their first pair of speakers will be lost. My comment about taking a weekend is for the audiophile who has been doing this for a while and already played around some with speaker placement. And they are looking for methods/ideas on how to refine their setup further.

 

[JiminGa]

Even worst is the situation of the so called Sumiko method of speaker placement. We are told by them that the text floating in the net is wrong and misleading, but they keep the "true" version for themselves. I understand that people should be free to protect their intellectual property and not releasing, but in the long term they are harming the high-end market.

Speaker placement is a key point in a system. In this aspect, people owning corner speakers are lucky!

Actually that’s a little off the mark. The Sumiko method originally began with John Hunter ( now of REL) and Stirling Trayle who is still in the setup business a long time ago. Todd Snyder of The Sound Environment and Stirling now carry on the tradition but it has evolved and it is no longer the same “method”. Originally it was a way to maximize linear bass from small speakers. Now after decades Todd and Stirling have each modified their approaches and they do things a bit differently. Their approaches have diverged a bit. They have come a LONG way. At the heart of it it involves minimizing the speakers interaction with the room. They start with only one speaker and “lock” it in place. Then the other speaker is brought in. The position of the first speaker has an optimal place (based on the room) of +/- one centimeter. It’s never a formula of 80% or 110% of anything. They inevitably end up somewhere in this range but it’s based on the room interaction not trying to shoehorn the speakers into some 38% rule or equilateral triangle or anything else. You can’t put this method in an email and send it to someone. It’s done by listening centimeter by centimeter by voice before turning on the system. You can sit in your listening position and have someone at tweeter level stand in the front corner and talk to you. Have them slowly move out/in and you will hear their voice change. Getting it exactly right is a 10 plus hour project. Complicated setups might take 2 days. Having watched this several times this is way beyond just telling someone how to do it. From what I’ve seen they struggle to teach this to prospective partners because it is so listening dependent and very few people are actually good at it.

 

[Elliot G.]

Actually that’s a little off the mark. The Sumiko method originally began with John Hunter ( now of REL) and Stirling Trayle who is still in the setup business a long time ago. Todd Snyder of The Sound Environment and Stirling now carry on the tradition but it has evolved and it is no longer the same “method”. Originally it was a way to maximize linear bass from small speakers. Now after decades Todd and Stirling have each modified their approaches and they do things a bit differently. Their approaches have diverged a bit. They have come a LONG way. At the heart of it it involves minimizing the speakers interaction with the room. They start with only one speaker and “lock” it in place. Then the other speaker is brought in. The position of the first speaker has an optimal place (based on the room) of +/- one centimeter. It’s never a formula of 80% or 110% of anything. They inevitably end up somewhere in this range but it’s based on the room interaction not trying to shoehorn the speakers into some 38% rule or equilateral triangle or anything else. You can’t put this method in an email and send it to someone. It’s done by listening centimeter by centimeter by voice before turning on the system. You can sit in your listening position and have someone at tweeter level stand in the front corner and talk to you. Have them slowly move out/in and you will hear their voice change. Getting it exactly right is a 10 plus hour project. Complicated setups might take 2 days. Having watched this several times this is way beyond just telling someone how to do it. From what I’ve seen they struggle to teach this to prospective partners because it is so listening dependent and very few people are actually good at it.

Jim, I agree and I have no idea of the amount of people that can do it and do it well. It is a learned skill and in order to learn it you must be able to listen ( not hear) but listen critically ,listening critically is also a learned skill.
The method, like a recipe, can be followed and IMO it should be better than having no recipe but by no means does it mean that the user is a master chef anymore than they are a master set up person.
How do I know this? From a lifetime of visiting clients who have not been able to even get a small portion of the quality out of their systems.
From visiting showrooms and trade show rooms and factory showrooms most of which are very far from excellent.
It is somehow taboo to learn or to admit one does not know how but not to speak about the subject. I guess this is a legacy of the internet and it carries over to many other subjects.
My doctor friends tell me the same as do my golfer buddies and my lawyer friends too. I play golf with a few that know everything, have everything and still can't play for s-hit but they can tell you everything you are doing wrong
I have learned a lot from audio and the people that have participated in my education and I absolutely realize I don't know everything, not even close however that does not hold here on the interweb LOL

 

[Lee]

Lee,

Great writing, but this is the type of post that can be highly destructive to the high-end and to its future. Accepting that the supreme and indispensable knowledge of something is centered in half a dozen people who fail to transmit it is accepting the close last dawn of it.

IMO the hobby does not aim at supreme perfection, it aims at entertainment and enjoyment of music with high quality. And IMO although "a good rule of thumb is that everything matters" at some time you have to pick what matters to you and forget about all else.

Please understand I am not commenting on the expertise and value of the people you addressed, just a general comment on the set up of systems.

My posts on the subject are surely influenced by my admiration for Jim Smith lifetime work.

I politely differ here. The best thing that can happen to the hobby is for more people to get a great setup. Most people would then enjoy a higher level of musical engagement and that would pull them into the hobby more.

I see a lot of instances where audiophiles have spent huge money and their systems are not satisfying. For reasonable money you can hire Stirling or Todd or me to improve things in a way that offers a likely higher ROI than a component purchase.

 

[Lee]

Actually that’s a little off the mark. The Sumiko method originally began with John Hunter ( now of REL) and Stirling Trayle who is still in the setup business a long time ago. Todd Snyder of The Sound Environment and Stirling now carry on the tradition but it has evolved and it is no longer the same “method”. Originally it was a way to maximize linear bass from small speakers. Now after decades Todd and Stirling have each modified their approaches and they do things a bit differently. Their approaches have diverged a bit. They have come a LONG way. At the heart of it it involves minimizing the speakers interaction with the room. They start with only one speaker and “lock” it in place. Then the other speaker is brought in. The position of the first speaker has an optimal place (based on the room) of +/- one centimeter. It’s never a formula of 80% or 110% of anything. They inevitably end up somewhere in this range but it’s based on the room interaction not trying to shoehorn the speakers into some 38% rule or equilateral triangle or anything else. You can’t put this method in an email and send it to someone. It’s done by listening centimeter by centimeter by voice before turning on the system. You can sit in your listening position and have someone at tweeter level stand in the front corner and talk to you. Have them slowly move out/in and you will hear their voice change. Getting it exactly right is a 10 plus hour project. Complicated setups might take 2 days. Having watched this several times this is way beyond just telling someone how to do it. From what I’ve seen they struggle to teach this to prospective partners because it is so listening dependent and very few people are actually good at it.

I bet if you measured all of Todd’s setups, the vast majority would be on Jim Smith’s 0.82 to 0.84 formula.

The genius of Jim’s formula is that it was derived from setting up thousands of systems. It’s a summation of a life’s experience.