Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[JiminGa]

IMO speaker set up is essentially a process of convergence - the tricky is aspect is knowing if we are approaching or getting far from the gold point with each move.

We see it mainly involves X (lateral) and Y (longitudinal) movements as well as toe in. Although they are interdependent - each of them seems affect the others, does X and Y have a strong dependence on toe in?

Yes

 

[JiminGa]

Yes

Actually the other way around

 

[microstrip]

Actually the other way around

Sorry, I am not following you ...

 

[JiminGa]

Sorry, I am not following you ...

That toe in is affected by ( among other things) the placement of the speakers (x and y) vis a vis the listening position.

 

[microstrip]

That toe in is affected by ( among other things) the placement of the speakers (x and y) vis a vis the listening position.

Thanks. Well, my question was mainly addressing if X and Y placement are strongly affected by toe in during the set up process.

 

[sbnx]

Thanks. Well, my question was mainly addressing if X and Y placement are strongly affected by toe in during the set up process.

There are two ways of thinking about this. I think what you are asking is:

Suppose I have the speakers 8 feet apart and the toe-in is angled such that it points at my shoulder. Now move the speakers 9 feet apart. Do they now point somewhere else (perhaps half way between the ear and shoulder).

In my experience the answer to this is no. The tweeter would point at the same point on my body. Which leads to the second way of thinking about it (which I think is what Jim is saying).

Since the speaker should point at the same location regardless of the lateral position then moving the speaker laterally outward would require the speaker to have more toe-in and vice-versa.

 

[JiminGa]

Thanks. Well, my question was mainly addressing if X and Y placement are strongly affected by toe in during the set up process.

not at all

 

[PeterA]

There are two ways of thinking about this. I think what you are asking is:

Suppose I have the speakers 8 feet apart and the toe-in is angled such that it points at my shoulder. Now move the speakers 9 feet apart. Do they now point somewhere else (perhaps half way between the ear and shoulder).

In my experience the answer to this is no. The tweeter would point at the same point on my body. Which leads to the second way of thinking about it (which I think is what Jim is saying).

Since the speaker should point at the same location regardless of the lateral position then moving the speaker laterally outward would require the speaker to have more toe-in and vice-versa.

Jim Smith told me that when one changes the distance between the speakers, he must rotate the speaker adjusting the toe point at the same place. So, further apart, more toe in.

Now image the speakers fairly close together and aimed straight ahead. There is a certain spot on the back wall behind the listener at which the tweeter is aimed. As the speakers move further apart, to maintain that same spot on the back wall you have to introduce some toe in. What becomes interesting is how the dispersion/reflection interacts and bounces off the walls and how this effect is perceived by the listener.

Now, the angle of the tweeter to the listener also changes if the speakers are aimed straight ahead with no toe in and the speakers are moved forward or backward. This change of the baffle angle to the listener (even with no toe-in) affects tonal balance as does the distance of the woofer to the walls as the speaker is moved around, but not rotated for toe in. I was quite surprised at how natural my Magico speakers eventually sounded when I pointed the speakers straight ahead and spent a few weeks struggling to reposition them in the room for the right tonal balance and impact. Of course it depends on the type of speaker and dispersion patterns.

 

[JiminGa]

Jim Smith told me that when one changes the distance between the speakers, he must rotate the speaker adjusting the toe point at the same place. So, further apart, more toe in.

Now image the speakers fairly close together and aimed straight ahead. There is a certain spot on the back wall behind the listener at which the tweeter is aimed. As the speakers move further apart, to maintain that same spot on the back wall you have to introduce some toe in. What becomes interesting is how the dispersion/reflection interacts and bounces off the walls and how this effect is perceived by the listener.

Now, the angle of the tweeter to the listener also changes if the speakers are aimed straight ahead with no toe in and the speakers are moved forward or backward. This change of the baffle angle to the listener (even with no toe-in) affects tonal balance as does the distance of the woofer to the walls as the speaker is moved around, but not rotated for toe in. I was quite surprised at how natural my Magico speakers eventually sounded when I pointed the speakers straight ahead and spent a few weeks struggling to reposition them in the room for the right tonal balance and impact. Of course it depends on the type of speaker and dispersion patterns.

That's generally true. Where the speaker is ultimately "aimed" is done by ear and it's hard to know in advance where that is going to be. There is no applicable rule. Every room is different. There are many types of speakers. That means an almost infinite number of resulting room/speaker interactions.

 

[PeterA]

That's generally true. Where the speaker is ultimately "aimed" is done by ear and it's hard to know in advance where that is going to be. There is no applicable rule. Every room is different. There are many types of speakers. That means an almost infinite number of resulting room/speaker interactions.

I agree with that. Almost every set up I have seen has some degree of toe-in. Some very little, some quite a lot. I see very few systems where there is no toe in, but those have sounded excellent to me, admittedly after much effort during the set up process.

 

[Holmz]

Yes, but for the sake of argument, I was thinking two speakers pulled out from the walls standing free in space. Almost every orientation instance I’ve seen at private homes, dealers and shows, speakers are toed in, often by a lot. Very few are aiming straight ahead, but I found after a lot of effort, I preferred that orientation in my old system. I’m just curious if others have even tried it.

With this orientation, I ended up moving the speakers closer towards each other and so the ratio of tweeter to tweeter versus ear to tweeter was less than Jim Smith’s findings of roughly 83%. One of the things Jim Smith told me which I found quite interesting and true is that moving the speakers closer towards each other does not have to result in a narrower sound stage. I found this to be the case, regardless of the degree of toe in. When the speakers were in the right spot in the room, I experienced a greater variety of spatial information between recordings.

I run none, to very little.
But I have run significant toe in when I had a window next to the LHS speaker.

 

[Gunnar]

I have been following this tread. I have looked around on the Internet for a LDEAR checkup. CD or a download but not sure that I found the right product. Any recommendation?

 

[RoyGregory]

I have been following this tread. I have looked around on the Internet for a LDEAR checkup. CD or a download but not sure that I found the right product. Any recommendation?

You can find the LEDR tests, plus a bunch of other useful stuff, on the Nordost System Solution test and set-up discs. I'm not aware of anywhere that they are available as a download.

 

[Gunnar]

You can find the LEDR tests, plus a bunch of other useful stuff, on the Nordost System Solution test and set-up discs. I'm not aware of anywhere that they are available as a download.

Thanks I found it.

My “listening room” is a little bit complicated. Will buy it and see what’s coming out.

 

[sbnx]

I have been following this tread. I have looked around on the Internet for a LDEAR checkup. CD or a download but not sure that I found the right product. Any recommendation?

Here is a link to the webpage that contain information regarding the LEDR tests. It contains other information you might find interesting as well.

Online LEDR™ Sound Test | Listening Environment Diagnostic Recording Test

Audio Test Tones : check your stereo system for correct imaging

www.audiocheck.net