dCS Varese vs....

[Al M.]

i enjoyed my time with the big VAC Statement 450's in my system. a lot to like. it could handle complicated music for sure. in the end i preferred the darTZeel 468's solid state, but likely other solid state choices at that time might have bowed to the VAC. generally i lean toward tube amplification too, but not heard the best non-darTZeel current solid state offerings......yet.

Of course it also very much depends not just on the type of tube gear, but on how easy the speakers are to drive. Mine are a very easy load by impedance (high throughout) and phase angle characteristics.

For many if not most non-horns the best choice may be solid state, at least when it comes to the power amp.

 

[bonzo75]

in early 2017 i had a fork in my digital road. i had a modestly priced solid state Aqua Formula dac demo unit i compared to my Lampi GG 1.5. head to head it was clear (pun intended) that the more demanding the music, the more i was hearing the music with the Formula dac, and hearing through something to get to the music with the GG 1.5. sure i liked the tube sound, it was beautiful, but on much of the music it was in the way. i had plenty of tubes to roll. this was a big surprise to me. but undeniable.

6 months later i ended up buying a used MSB Select II to go further down the solid state dac road.

this was in my system, to my ears, head to head on the music that was most important to me to be the most satisfying. big complicated music in a big room without limits was my priority. still is. with the Wadax i think i get it all with any type of music; truth and beauty. digital has come a ways.

other ears and systems and music focus might have taken the other fork. the Lampi GG 1.5 was a sweet dac. could live with it forever and not look back.

The Lampi GG was much better than the Select 2, in my comparisons, and since then there have been other similar reports of maybe Pacific or so. For complex classical.

 

[bonzo75]

Of course it also very much depends not just on the type of tube gear, but on how easy the speakers are to drive. Mine are a very easy load by impedance (high throughout) and phase angle characteristics.

For many if not most non-horns the best choice may be solid state, at least when it comes to the power amp.

High powered push pull tube amps are poor. NLF

 

[Al M.]

High powered push pull tube amps are poor. NLF

Never too afraid throwing around insulting acronyms, are you?

Anyway, define high-powered.

 

[Lee]

For me personally I do not prioritize clarity and information retrieval. I am looking forward to hearing Horizon 360 in direct comparison to Varese to see which is my personal preference.

I am a single issue voter. If the LampizatOr has greater "breath of life" on vocals, then for me personally it is game over.

Just an observation here: the Varese has the most lifelike vocal reproduction I have heard in a digital source.

 

[bonzo75]

Never too afraid throwing around insulting acronyms, are you?

Anyway, define high-powered.

Above 50w - NLF is not insulting, it is just a way to describe a process that actually happens

 

[Al M.]

Above 50w - NLF is not insulting, it is just a way to describe a process that actually happens

Above 50 W, huh? That would also be many SETs, including ones that Brad (Morricab) espouses.

Anyways, I went from low-powered triode amps (15W/ch) to my current Octave. The Octave is simply better to my ears.

I have heard many low-powered SETs so far. While I like the sound, none has inspired me to think that I would prefer them over my Octave.

 

[Amir]

Amir, you seem to be describing an either/or condition and a choice. What if the listener’s goal is to have the best qualities of both of these scenarios? What source would you then suggest?

Dear Peter, I think it is not possible (maybe my experience is not enough) if you listen to all music types. After 2005 I convinced I should have two audio systems.

first system : tube system (like kondo living voice vox microseiki or Lamm Vitavox AS …)

Second system : Solidstate (like ASR Emitter Vitus Kharma Gobel TAD Wadax Weiss …)

I believe tube system is more emotional/natural and solidstate is good for some type of energetic music (like supertramp).

High performance analog/Tube/horns are finally winner but I like good digital/solidstate/cone systems too.

I believe the main problems of the sound is more related to speaker position, ac power quality, noise rf vibration and SNR problems and system matching/setup.

 

[bonzo75]

Above 50 W, huh? That would also be many SETs, including ones that Brad (Morricab) espouses

I know that like non audiophiles think all audiophiles are the same, and digital people think all analog guys and records and tables are the same, your knowledge of SETs and horns makes you think Brad and I are similar.

 

[andromedaaudio]

High performance analog/Tube/horns are finally winner but I like good digital/solidstate/cone systems too.

You read too much Bonzo 75 .

The winner is a full FMA system with Vertere Record player

Solid state and Cones bby

 

[Al M.]

I know that like non audiophiles think all audiophiles are the same, and digital people think all analog guys and records and tables are the same,

Obviously not. I know analog too well for that.

your knowledge of SETs and horns makes you think Brad and I are similar.

Obviously not. And I have said so. Maybe you should adjust your biases that paint everything and everyone as a caricature.

 

[bonzo75]

Obviously not. I know analog too well for that.



Obviously not. And I have said so. Maybe you should adjust your biases that paint everything and everyone as a caricature.

Then how is what Brad thinks relevant to when i make a comment on low powered amps. If Mike says something on SS, does anyone tell him oh you are completely disagreeing with what Marty says. Did anyone tell Pk LA in his recent thread what Al M thinks about Schiit dacs? People group others together when they don’t understand the nuances or differences between the different players

 

[Al M.]

Then how is what Brad thinks relevant to when i make a comment on low powered amps. If Mike says something on SS, does anyone tell him oh you are completely disagreeing with what Marty says. Did anyone tell Pk LA in his recent thread what Al M thinks about Schiit dacs? People group others together when they don’t understand the nuances or differences between the different players

My comment on Brad was a side note. The more important question is: Do you reject any SET above 50 W/ch as "poor"?

 

[bonzo75]

My comment on Brad was a side note. The more important question is: Do you reject any SET above 50 W/ch as "poor"?

That is a silly question, to generalise so simply. But I haven’t heard SETs above 50 I would want, except for one, and that too it is not close to what very low watt SETs can do with appropriate speakers. But push pulls yes. AR, Cat, VTL, Ayon, CJ etc

 

[Al M.]

But I haven’t heard SETs above 50 I would want, except for one, and that too it is not close to what very low watt SETs can do with appropriate speakers

Fair enough.

 

[bonzo75]

Fair enough.

Also my poor comment was on high powered push pull amps, which I listed, not on sets. Sets are better than push pulls, just not as good as lower watt sets, so yes I still wouldn’t want them

 

[PeterA]

My comment on Brad was a side note. The more important question is: Do you reject any SET above 50 W/ch as "poor"?

As with every category, there is bad, good better and best. What becomes interesting is how do the various best compare for the individual?

I don’t think Brad or Bonzo or anyone in the vinyl SET Horn camp thanks everything there is good. Likely most are rejected as bad. Nuances and preferences depend on individual experience and exposure and preference and likely most on what the speakers in the room are.

I find also interesting that Ralph is the one who discusses his tube designs more than anyone else. Consensus is fairly hard to find.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

As with every category, there is bad, good better and best. What becomes interesting is how do the various best compare for the individual?

agree. and the 'why' and 'in what way' is helpful.

Consensus is fairly hard to find.

it should be hard. so many variables. but sometimes it happens.

to me the sensitive part is when some amp topology/output category gets dismissed/diminished/generalized. it's really never quite that simple to reduce it like that. horses for courses and all that. i realize it makes it easier to throw labels around and make strong concise points. and rally the troops.

 

[Sampajanna]

I have yet to hear the Aphrodite, but I would add that Lampi dacs have come quite a ways since GG as well. Personally, I am not tube-anathema type. I love everything about tubes. SO interesting how we all find our slots. I have a buddy who is head over heels in the Danish gear—all Borrensen/Avik/Ansuz, all the tine….

 

[Antonismeister]

I now own three DACs that are actively rotated into my system. They are the dCS Varese, the MSB Select 2 + Director, and the Lampizator Horizon 360.

I started this thread to share my own impressions.

First, my impressions of the Select 2: I find the Select 2 to be slightly warm, somewhat sweet, very balanced from top to bottom, incredibly resolving and wonderful with complex transients. It is never harsh or metallic to my ears. But, it also never approaches what I hear with analogue - that wonderful smoothness, uber natural decay and a sense of presence.

On the Horizon 360: Let me start my saying that whenever I switch to the Select 2 from the Horizon I am immediately more impressed by the Select 2. It just seems to render music across the frequency range with balance and equal favor. But, after I settle in and listen I always return to the Horizon. It is just somehow more pleasant. It has a warmth and the mid-range! It never gets harsh but it also does favor all frequencies with equal attention. It is an absolute wonder in the upper bass through the upper mid-range. The others, well, they're good, too - just not quite Ivy League (to quote a movie!).

On the Varese: I have owned a Rossini + Clock and I have spent a long period with the Vivaldi Apex. Those DACs are very impressive. Not to my tastes but still impressive. I find them to be digital sounding and even metallic in the upper frequencies. That said, they are awesome - I am using hyperbole here to make a point! The Varese is just somehow there. When I first heard the Varese I was somewhat 'meh' about it. It neither impressed me nor did it offend. It was fine. Or so I thought. But, as I auditioned amplifiers I found myself asking more and more to pair the amps with the Varese. I found that it added nothing and removed nothing. It was never harsh. Yet it never misses a beat. It is not warm nor is it cold. It is just there. But after listening to so many genres of music where it just did its job so adequately I found myself liking it more and more. With the Horizon, I tend to listen to vocals - anything mid-range focused. With the Select 2 I tend to listen to rock, classical and a tick of jazz (just trying to be cool!) But with the Varese I listen to everything - it just doesn't care. It is merely adequate in all the most incredible ways. I have no idea how to describe its voicing because I do not sense any.

You connect those DACs directly to poweramp? What interconnects do you use?