Best power cable under $1000

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,444
4
38
Utah
#61
Once again, I remember why comparing power cables is such a PITA. Most of the cables are using different connectors, different gauge wire, different philosophies and more. Each one has its plusses and minuses...and no two sound alike. None, at least in my comparison so far is neutral. Come to think of it, i don't think I have ever heard a truly neutral power cable...
DDK, when was the last time that you did a power cable comparison. Your results?
A couple of weeks ago but it's irrelevant, my comment was about believing something is new or innovative just because of it's brand, that's all.

david
 
Oct 30, 2017
496
0
16
USA
#62
All I said is that the design of the Furutech looks similar to VFD cables and VFDs don't make the best PC for audio, what is there to revisit you seem to agree with that statement too Blimp? Looks can be deceiving something can look impressive in a CAD drawing when it's just a standard design industrial cable :). That was the point of my post, just a cautionary remark.

You haven't taken any measurements to know anything about inductance of this cable vs others of similar design and even if you had what's the ideal inductance for high end audio level? Anyone? How's their damping which also looks similar to some industrial wires I've seen affecting the sound, why would this Furutech's damping sound better than the $0.60/meter wire I have in the above picture or other VFD cables? You're also dismissing the effects of double shielding just because it says Furutech on the sleeve that somehow magically the brand negates the general characteristic of this type of design. I've known about nanotech wires for at least 12-15 years and they've been even longer, nothing new and Mitsubishi Materials is an industrial giant they don't develop wires for high end audio it's all for industry, there are others also making nanotech wires is there a reason that they won't be used in some VFDs? The same for occ, it's a brand now continuous casting machines are commonplace in the industry. Anyway back to my original point, none of this hype matters! I still haven't heard a convincing reason why power cords affect the sound as much as they do so there's no way to correlate any of your comments with good sound one way or another Furutech's claims for that matter, it mostly boils down to if you're a fan of the brand or not.

david
So you are having a disagreement with someone who has listened extensively to to a cable about how you think the cable will sound based on its appearance. You refuse to acknowledge the significant design and build differences between an industrial cable you tested and the cable in question even those that are clearly visibly evident (insulation et. al.). You falsely accuse me of ignoring the effects of double shielding because of a brand name when I specifically addressed the engineering behind how to properly avoid capacitance with double shielding. The rest of your logic is almost too convoluted to follow. Of course no one uses Nano for Industrial VFD's; Mitsubishi absolutely makes specialty copper for advanced electronics; of course none of the hype matters, what matters is the sound, which you have not evaluated and is exactly the whole point of this discussion. Others have heard the wire and you haven't yet you choose to compare it to an industrial wire you have heard and dismiss anyone else's perspective as naivete.

I know I am new here and I am certainly not looking for fights and you are an Expert but the fact that you even tried to use a VFD hookup wire in audio tells me all I need to know about your understanding of electrical engineering. As I reflect on this whole interaction I can't help but feel your purpose here relates to something other than power cables.
 
Jan 29, 2012
829
4
18
#63
The word "insulting" is too easily thrown around Dave. You can't be insulted by general (and mostly accurate) statements made about your chosen industry. Instead of being "insulted," demonstrate how your cables or business practices are different.
 

DaveC

[Industry Expert]
Nov 16, 2014
2,177
0
36
#64
The word "insulting" is too easily thrown around Dave. You can't be insulted by general (and mostly accurate) statements made about your chosen industry. Instead of being "insulted," demonstrate how your cables or business practices are different.
Sorry, I don't understand your post.
 

DaveC

[Industry Expert]
Nov 16, 2014
2,177
0
36
#65
A couple of weeks ago but it's irrelevant, my comment was about believing something is new or innovative just because of it's brand, that's all.

david
This is the insulting part. What do you assume about a person who blindly follows a brand and believes anything the brand claims? Personally, I assume they have limited intellectual capacity, low intelligence, they are naive, easily manipulated, can't think for themselves, etc...

The truth is far from that assumption. I never gave the S55N a chance when it first came out because I looked at it and dismissed it as more of the same. Furutech's stranded PCOCC wire in PVC insulation has always been horrible sounding wire imo. Furutech has rarely if ever come up with a good sounding cable... until recently. Luckily I listened to other people and gave their newest cables a chance. I'm claiming what I have... that the DPS-4 is quite possibly the best <$1k power cable (although it's a bit more than $1k w/NCF plugs)... because I bought the cable and evaluated it for myself and I give it the praise I do despite my previous beliefs and experiences.

You're also willfully ignoring all of the special design features I mentioned earlier, and like other cable discussions in the past you get too emotional to avoid blatant bias and jumping to conclusions based on looks without trying it out for yourself. As a highly regarded industry figure, I think this isn't acceptable behavior. Your word carries more weight than most and as such you have a responsibility to be more careful with what you say. Furutech is a relatively big company so maybe you feel it's ok, but it really isn't and this kind of thing does have an effect on others' businesses and livlihood. You have a responsibility to make sure what you say publicly is accurate and has the weight of your own experience behind it. IMHO of course...
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,444
4
38
Utah
#66
So you are having a disagreement with someone who has listened extensively to to a cable about how you think the cable will sound based on its appearance. You refuse to acknowledge the significant design and build differences between an industrial cable you tested and the cable in question even those that are clearly visibly evident (insulation et. al.). You falsely accuse me of ignoring the effects of double shielding because of a brand name when I specifically addressed the engineering behind how to properly avoid capacitance with double shielding. The rest of your logic is almost too convoluted to follow. Of course no one uses Nano for Industrial VFD's; Mitsubishi absolutely makes specialty copper for advanced electronics; of course none of the hype matters, what matters is the sound, which you have not evaluated and is exactly the whole point of this discussion. Others have heard the wire and you haven't yet you choose to compare it to an industrial wire you have heard and dismiss anyone else's perspective as naivete.

I know I am new here and I am certainly not looking for fights and you are an Expert but the fact that you even tried to use a VFD hookup wire in audio tells me all I need to know about your understanding of electrical engineering. As I reflect on this whole interaction I can't help but feel your purpose here relates to something other than power cables.
- First of all welcome Paul, and there are no issues with being new here nor do I claim any seniority privileges we both have the same access rights to express opinions. No fight the exchanges getting a little heated or tones rising at times is part of the norm.

- With all due respect you know nothing about my application for VFD nor which ones I used but it was never to make audio power cords with them. My reference to effects of double shields comes from other audiophile powercords.

- "Looks like your typical industrial VFD cable design, not something you’d want for your high end audio system.", my original post regarding using VFDs for audio purposes.

- I never mentioned anything about the sound quality of this cable what I debated was your technical arguments without having any done any measurements or what was your baseline, standard question for technical claims; what are the facts and compared to what. All I know is that capacitance is based on cable diameter and length, what in the design of this cable suddenly changed this rule? Is there a magic target for capacitance? I have no argument regarding the subjective sound of this wire for you and frankly nor do I care.

david
 
Oct 30, 2017
496
0
16
USA
#67
- First of all welcome Paul, and there are no issues with being new here nor do I claim any seniority privileges we both have the same access rights to express opinions. No fight the exchanges getting a little heated or tones rising at times is part of the norm.

- With all due respect you know nothing about my application for VFD nor which ones I used but it was never to make audio power cords with them. My reference to effects of double shields comes from other audiophile powercords.

- "Looks like your typical industrial VFD cable design, not something you’d want for your high end audio system.", my original post regarding using VFDs for audio purposes.

- I never mentioned anything about the sound quality of this cable what I debated was your technical arguments without having any done any measurements or what was your baseline, standard question for technical claims; what are the facts and compared to what. All I know is that capacitance is based on cable diameter and length, what in the design of this cable suddenly changed this rule? Is there a magic target for capacitance? I have no argument regarding the subjective sound of this wire for you and frankly nor do I care.

david
Not sure the purpose in proceeding on this, but for the record-- You are now positing that my listening experience is not legitimate because I have not measured the cable and hence your optical determinations prevail. Odd indeed. When I read your bold comment above it provided further evidence of the problem at hand. I think you fail to understand some of the basic elements of the design discussion so how can you possibly grasp the merits of one design versus another. A shielded cable's capacitance is also driven by the design and materials used in the insulation separating the shield from the transmission lines as has been pointed out by myself and others. In this regard the cables vary drastically.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to meet you david. Thanks for the discussion and the clarity regarding your feelings about my perspective. Have a great day.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,444
4
38
Utah
#68
This is the insulting part. What do you assume about a person who blindly follows a brand and believes anything the brand claims? Personally, I assume they have limited intellectual capacity, low intelligence, they are naive, easily manipulated, can't think for themselves, etc...
Depending on the person and situation all, some or none of the above. I still don't see as an insult when any or all of the above can be true. I'll listen and argue audio all day with you Dave but please put the civic lessons away, political correctness is the last thing you should expect from me.

The truth is far from that assumption. I never gave the S55N a chance when it first came out because I looked at it and dismissed it as more of the same. Furutech's stranded PCOCC wire in PVC insulation has always been horrible sounding wire imo. Furutech has rarely if ever come up with a good sounding cable...
No argument here, we're in full agreement here.

until recently. Luckily I listened to other people and gave their newest cables a chance. I'm claiming what I have... that the DPS-4 is quite possibly the best <$1k power cable (although it's a bit more than $1k w/NCF plugs)... because I bought the cable and evaluated it for myself and I give it the praise I do despite my previous beliefs and experiences.
Fine, I never argued the sound quality of this wire one way or another. We've never met nor had a chance to compare notes so without an established or understood baseline any debate on subjective sound quality on this topic amounts to little more than stating our individual preferences.

You're also willfully ignoring all of the special design features I mentioned earlier, and like other cable discussions in the past you get too emotional to avoid blatant bias and jumping to conclusions based on looks without trying it out for yourself.
I didn't ignore you just skeptical about the relative sonic values of those design features and as I rule I don't get emotional with audio but sometimes get emotional reactions to my comments. It's not bias one can gain knowledge from experience and is possible to visually recognize certain facts. I was told the same thing when I argued the claims of a certain amplifier manufacturer for having built a 500watt pure class A amplifier simply based on the visual dimensions of the chassis and was attacked from every side until the manufacturer fessed up. It's the same case here, you might disagree but I see more visually apparent commonality with some industrial wires than differences in this design.

As a highly regarded industry figure, I think this isn't acceptable behavior. Your word carries more weight than most and as such you have a responsibility to be more careful with what you say. Furutech is a relatively big company so maybe you feel it's ok, but it really isn't and this kind of thing does have an effect on others' businesses and livlihood. You have a responsibility to make sure what you say publicly is accurate and has the weight of your own experience behind it. IMHO of course...
Fair enough Dave but I have a good reason for bringing up comparisons with industrial wires. Engineers use double shielding for very specific reasons and unlike high end audio that is more concerned with looks and hype than cost in the industrial world every single cent matters, they won't just dress up a cable for looks.Typically one shield is to keep the noise in (last thing you want in audio) so it won't interfere with the operation of other sensitive equipment in proximity and the 2nd shield to deflect the noise from other equipment, motors, etc.. Here we have a high priced audio specific bulk wire with dual shields, given the usual use of such design wanting to know why and questioning the idea behind this cable's design is only natural and not irresponsible as you say. What got me were the replies. First I'm told that the negative sonic effects of double shields are somehow negated with the winding technique so logical followup query for me is why use something in the first place that you have to somehow claim to have counteracted down the line to begin with? AFAIK you can only wind wires two ways, clock & counter clockwise is there another way that I missed with this cable? Finally based on which engineering principle does combining differently wound conductors un-trap the trapped noise by the shield? These are the questions behind my comments not a reaction to a name; I'd love to learn if you have answers.

david
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,444
4
38
Utah
#69
Not sure the purpose in proceeding on this, but for the record-- You are now positing that my listening experience is not legitimate because I have not measured the cable and hence your optical determinations prevail. Odd indeed. When I read your bold comment above it provided further evidence of the problem at hand. I think you fail to understand some of the basic elements of the design discussion so how can you possibly grasp the merits of one design versus another. A shielded cable's capacitance is also driven by the design and materials used in the insulation separating the shield from the transmission lines as has been pointed out by myself and others. In this regard the cables vary drastically.

In any case, it has been a pleasure to meet you david. Thanks for the discussion and the clarity regarding your feelings about my perspective. Have a great day.
Paul, sulk if you want but point out a single instance in the entire thread that I said anything about the legitimacy of your subjective listening experience or asking you for proof backing your listening related statements! I asked for proof only when you brought up technical aspects and capacitance of this wire, I want to understand how you correlate the engineering you praise to sound and what is the magical capacitance value of this wire at a given length that you keep mentioning. Where are the facts, you're backing your technological references by telling me I'm ignorant is that you reply to people?

david
 

DaveC

[Industry Expert]
Nov 16, 2014
2,177
0
36
#70
Fair enough... what I can say is the Furutech S55N and DPS-4 sound significantly different (and imo much better) vs past power cables I've tried, both of the Furutech brand and of the same general design made by lots of other manufacturers. And I did dismiss the original S55N as more of the same at first, but it isn't, so my previous beliefs about the standard power cable geometry and shielding need revision. The fact the S55N and DPS sound like they do is evidence this is true, and I'm sure they also sound nothing like the other VFD cables you've experimented with because there's significant and major differences in the one area that matters the most... the wire.

I agree you can make some judgments based on looks... some things are well known, like how much heat a 500W class A amp must dissipate and a small chassis would need to be fan or liquid cooled... but cables are not so obvious and you can't make the same kind of judgments with any certainty. Or you can, but be prepared to be proven wrong. ;)

With so many people here in agreement who have actually used the cables in question why not just grab a couple meters of DPS-4 cable and try it yourself? Use your favorite connectors and give it shot. I bet you'll be just as surprised as I was at how it sounds.

A few points...

- A double shield functions just like a single shield with a better rejection ratio, so it can be seen as simply a better shield.

- Shielding is often a good idea with digital components and those with SMPS type power supplies as they can be noisy.

- The potential negative effects of shielding can be reduced by spacing the shield away from the conductors, and not by the winding technique. The new Furutech cables are fairly large diameter...

- The winding technique I was talking about has nothing to do with the twisting of the 3 wires together, it's how the individual strands of copper are arranged within the wire it's self. Instead of the individual wire strands being clustered together in parallel there are 3 groups of strands... an inner, middle and outer layer that counter-rotate. I believe this reduces the negative effects of typical stranded wire.

- The wire has teflon insulation, which is the best imo and a big part of why it's so good.

- The carbon/nano infused layer seems to reduce noise and distortion in the same way many have described with the NCF parts and results in particularly nice upper mids and highs.
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
3,444
4
38
Utah
#71
Thanks for the clarification Dave, I get your points! I wasn't querying anyone on liking the sound of this or any other power cord for that matter I had questions regarding the design elements and what it reminded me of when you said; "It's actually revolutionary" the subsequent replies led somewhere else.

If you go down the thread there's a whole bunch of favorite power cords listed and the Furutech is only one of them. I might try a set in the future when time allows right now I'm still looking for a viable commercial alternative to the cheap ass chinese cords that I love :).

david


Fair enough... what I can say is the Furutech S55N and DPS-4 sound significantly different (and imo much better) vs past power cables I've tried, both of the Furutech brand and of the same general design made by lots of other manufacturers. And I did dismiss the original S55N as more of the same at first, but it isn't, so my previous beliefs about the standard power cable geometry and shielding need revision. The fact the S55N and DPS sound like they do is evidence this is true, and I'm sure they also sound nothing like the other VFD cables you've experimented with because there's significant and major differences in the one area that matters the most... the wire.

I agree you can make some judgments based on looks... some things are well known, like how much heat a 500W class A amp must dissipate and a small chassis would need to be fan or liquid cooled... but cables are not so obvious and you can't make the same kind of judgments with any certainty. Or you can, but be prepared to be proven wrong. ;)

With so many people here in agreement who have actually used the cables in question why not just grab a couple meters of DPS-4 cable and try it yourself? Use your favorite connectors and give it shot. I bet you'll be just as surprised as I was at how it sounds.

A few points...

- A double shield functions just like a single shield with a better rejection ratio, so it can be seen as simply a better shield.

- Shielding is often a good idea with digital components and those with SMPS type power supplies as they can be noisy.

- The potential negative effects of shielding can be reduced by spacing the shield away from the conductors, and not by the winding technique. The new Furutech cables are fairly large diameter...

- The winding technique I was talking about has nothing to do with the twisting of the 3 wires together, it's how the individual strands of copper are arranged within the wire it's self. Instead of the individual wire strands being clustered together in parallel there are 3 groups of strands... an inner, middle and outer layer that counter-rotate. I believe this reduces the negative effects of typical stranded wire.

- The wire has teflon insulation, which is the best imo and a big part of why it's so good.

- The carbon/nano infused layer seems to reduce noise and distortion in the same way many have described with the NCF parts and results in particularly nice upper mids and highs.