Best power cable under $1000
- Thread starter nirodha
- Start date
Looks like your typical industrial VFD cable design, not something you’d want for your high end audio system.
david
david
Agree!
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I'm in general agreement with DaveC on this. DPS-4 is an excellent cable. Less grain in the mids and highs are noticeable compared to many other PCs I have tried. What terminations to use is a work in progress. I'm currently fond of Furutech FI-11 copper male ends and working my way among several IEC female ends. Please note this is for a specific application (my preamp). I have not tried it on other front end gear (DAC, phono pre, transport) or my amps yet, but that will likely happen eventually. YMMV and might very well depend on the metals used in your AC receptacle and the specific IEC connector on your gear (commonly phosphor bronze or gold-plated copper).
C'mon david, you aren't gunna just hit and run are you?
I am not sure where to begin.......I guess first, as a purely factual matter, it neither "looks" like nor is designed like a variable frequency drive hook-up. Maybe give it a listen or even better comment about the design, materials, or something of substance.
The DPS-4 could be improved, the geometry could have the ground twisted the opposite way around the hot/neutal pair or there could be a 4-strand braid like my own PL power power cables, which are very competitive with the DPS at a lower cost. This would increase diameter though, which is not good.
What it comes down to is the wire is the dominant factor and geometry is a minor factor. The DPS-4 uses excellent wire with teflon insulation. The winding strategy for the stranding of the DPS-4's wire mitigates the issues associated with using stranded wire, as the nano-fluid does for the S55N, which to be honest would not be a good sounding cable without it. My PL cable gets around the stranding issue by using over 3000 individually insulated runs of UPOCC copper wire in a litz-type arrangement. The DPS has the advantage of teflon vs enamel insulation and I believe the carbon and nano-particle infused damping sheath in the DPS contributes a lot to it's sound as well.
Shielding is usually not a good thing for PCs, but the DPS-4 and S55N don't seem to suffer from the typical issues (stunted dynamics) I've heard with shielded PCs, I think the shield is spaced far enough away from the conductors that it doesn't interfere as much.
As far as unique features the DPS has quite a few and takes advantage of machine manufacturing to make wire that is not possible to duplicate by hand. I could take apart DPS-4 cables and make slightly superior cables for some applications by improving geometry or doubling up on conductors, but the stuff is already $450/meter...
What it comes down to is the wire is the dominant factor and geometry is a minor factor. The DPS-4 uses excellent wire with teflon insulation. The winding strategy for the stranding of the DPS-4's wire mitigates the issues associated with using stranded wire, as the nano-fluid does for the S55N, which to be honest would not be a good sounding cable without it. My PL cable gets around the stranding issue by using over 3000 individually insulated runs of UPOCC copper wire in a litz-type arrangement. The DPS has the advantage of teflon vs enamel insulation and I believe the carbon and nano-particle infused damping sheath in the DPS contributes a lot to it's sound as well.
Shielding is usually not a good thing for PCs, but the DPS-4 and S55N don't seem to suffer from the typical issues (stunted dynamics) I've heard with shielded PCs, I think the shield is spaced far enough away from the conductors that it doesn't interfere as much.
As far as unique features the DPS has quite a few and takes advantage of machine manufacturing to make wire that is not possible to duplicate by hand. I could take apart DPS-4 cables and make slightly superior cables for some applications by improving geometry or doubling up on conductors, but the stuff is already $450/meter...
Thanks DaveC, I hope you understand Folsom and my requests were to ddk's regarding his negative statement about DPS.
However, as an aside, respectfully I will say I don't fully understand the use of a litz-wire design in a power cable. Isn't a little skin effect good in a power cable as attenuates high frequency EMI/RFI?
The litz wire has 2 benefits in a PC...
- It gets rid of the grain caused by stranded wire, which the S55N mitigates with nano-fluid and the DPS by counter-rotating stranding. The alternative is using solid-core wire which isn't a good idea in larger sizes as it will degrade over time as it's not designed to be bent repeatedly, or many runs of smaller sized solid core wire, which can work well but is a lot of labor.
- Lower impedance ground path for higher frequency noise, litz wire makes for the best ground connection and it results in a quieter background.
My PL power cable is more on the level of the DPS vs the S55N, though I think the teflon insulation and carbon/nano damping jacket in the DPS are advantages... in the end the differences in these three cables are actually pretty subtle vs plugs. I'd take the S55N w/NCF plugs over the DPS w/any other plugs.
While I spend a lot of time here I also have a life that sometimes takes precedence
! Sometimes it's best if people try things for themselves specially when gaining experience is relatively cheap as in this case. This Furutech wire's double shielding pattern is similar to VFD (variable frequency) wires I've experimented with in the past. VFD cables were designed for motor control applications in harsh, noisy industrial settings where voltage spikes are also common place, typically this isn't your home environment. I'm not technically versed like Dave C what I know is what I learn from experience and I find that power cords made from VFD cables harden the sound and have a hifi quality to them. I haven't tried this particular cable but I'm not a fan of double shields for audio, I find that these designs trap as much mains noise as they're trying to block externally. Of course a lot of it comes down to system resolution, one might not hear a VFD cable's issues with a system which is already hard sounding.
david
(Edit, just noticed your comment on the cable design) PS- Here's a picture of a basic VFD with a foil and braid shield, what's so different? There are 3 conductor types and if you google VFD cables you'll find some with similar winding style too. Hey if you're happy paying a $1000+ a piece for industrial wires Blimp, be my guest.
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I’m in the process of listening to various power cords right now. So far, I have listened to the Synergistic tungsten Element, the Pangea PC9, an Element power cord ( sadly no longer made...so this disqualifies it, although it is a good pc) and am now going to be trying a new power cord from a company called Black Rhodium....
The Black Rhodiums are made in the UK and seem to be an interesting option. Nowhere near the design of the Synergistic, as an example.
I will be trying the Signal pc...this one called the Silver resolution ( I have high hopes for this one) and possibly the Sillnote GL Reference.
One thing that is certain, all of the designs range from flexible and easy to dress ( the Black Rhodiums) to a major PITA like the Synergistics. As to the SQ difference, I’m not sure yet, but they all have a certain coloration...none so far are neutral.
Whether a power cord like the Furutech referenced above would be, I cannot say...but for $1000 or less, maybe we cannot expect that??
The Black Rhodiums are made in the UK and seem to be an interesting option. Nowhere near the design of the Synergistic, as an example.
I will be trying the Signal pc...this one called the Silver resolution ( I have high hopes for this one) and possibly the Sillnote GL Reference.
One thing that is certain, all of the designs range from flexible and easy to dress ( the Black Rhodiums) to a major PITA like the Synergistics. As to the SQ difference, I’m not sure yet, but they all have a certain coloration...none so far are neutral.
Whether a power cord like the Furutech referenced above would be, I cannot say...but for $1000 or less, maybe we cannot expect that??
Agree on benefits of low inductance from skin effect for ground transmission. My experience with grain induced by skin effect has been specific to signal cables. I am a big fan of a good inductance design there; I use Nordost V2's IC's and SC's partly due to there design in this regard.
While I spend a lot of time here I also have a life that sometimes takes precedence
Sometimes it's best if people try things for themselves specially when gaining experience is relatively cheap as in this case. This Furutech wire's double shielding pattern is similar to VFD (variable frequency) wires I've experimented with in the past. VFD cables were designed for motor control applications in harsh, noisy industrial settings where voltage spikes are also common place, typically this isn't your home environment. I'm not technically versed like Dave C what I know is what I learn from experience and I find that power cords made from VFD cables harden the sound and have a hifi quality to them. I haven't tried this particular cable but I'm not a fan of double shields for audio, I find that these designs trap as much mains noise as they're trying to block externally. Of course a lot of it comes down to system resolution, one might not hear a VFD cable's issues with a system which is already hard sounding.
david
(Edit, just noticed your comment on the cable design) PS- Here's a picture of a basic VFD with a foil and braid shield, what's so different? There are 3 conductor types and if you google VFD cables you'll find some with similar winding style too. Hey if you're happy paying a $1000+ a piece for industrial wires Blimp, be my guest.
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Well david I understand what you are saying but I think you are making a making some very general statements based purely on your visual inspection and personal experience with vfd cables which would indeed be atrocious in an audio power application.
I own a plant full of VFD equipment and the Furutech wires have nothing in common at the heart of there design with VFD hook-ups. VFD's are extremely electrically noisy and their double shields are designed for to isolate the noise they create as well as shield noise from the outside. Look at the level and type of insulation that is between the shields and the transmission wires. This is fundamental. Shielded designs are worse than twisted pair for power audio if they are not properly insulated to avoid capacitance. When the insulation design is right they can be far superior. You can achieve an extremely high level of rmi/efi shielding with nil capacitance implications. Next, the copper used in the Fururtechs transmission lines as well as their inductance and damping design are simply not comparable.
Possibly you may want to take the bolded statement you made above to heart. Looks can be deceiving.
Well david I understand what you are saying but I think you are making a making some very general statements based purely on your visual inspection and personal experience with vfd cables which would indeed be atrocious in an audio power application.
I own a plant full of VFD equipment and the Furutech wires have nothing in common at the heart of there design with VFD hook-ups. VFD's are extremely electrically noisy and their double shields are designed for to isolate the noise they create as well as shield noise from the outside. Look at the level and type of insulation that is between the shields and the transmission wires. This is fundamental. Shielded designs are worse than twisted pair for power audio if they are not properly insulated to avoid capacitance. When the insulation design is right they can be far superior. You can achieve an extremely high level of rmi/efi shielding with nil capacitance implications. Next, the copper used in the Fururtechs transmission lines as well as their inductance and damping design are simply not comparable.
Possibly you may want to take the bolded statement you made above to heart. Looks can be deceiving.
All I said is that the design of the Furutech looks similar to VFD cables and VFDs don't make the best PC for audio, what is there to revisit you seem to agree with that statement too Blimp? Looks can be deceiving something can look impressive in a CAD drawing when it's just a standard design industrial cable
. That was the point of my post, just a cautionary remark.You haven't taken any measurements to know anything about inductance of this cable vs others of similar design and even if you had what's the ideal inductance for high end audio level? Anyone? How's their damping which also looks similar to some industrial wires I've seen affecting the sound, why would this Furutech's damping sound better than the $0.60/meter wire I have in the above picture or other VFD cables? You're also dismissing the effects of double shielding just because it says Furutech on the sleeve that somehow magically the brand negates the general characteristic of this type of design. I've known about nanotech wires for at least 12-15 years and they've been even longer, nothing new and Mitsubishi Materials is an industrial giant they don't develop wires for high end audio it's all for industry, there are others also making nanotech wires is there a reason that they won't be used in some VFDs? The same for occ, it's a brand now continuous casting machines are commonplace in the industry. Anyway back to my original point, none of this hype matters! I still haven't heard a convincing reason why power cords affect the sound as much as they do so there's no way to correlate any of your comments with good sound one way or another Furutech's claims for that matter, it mostly boils down to if you're a fan of the brand or not.
david
Seriously? With insulting comments like this it's impossible to take you seriously. IDK why you feel the need to go off the deep end on occasion... it's not a good look.
This isn't the first time you've judged something based on looks and your armchair engineering, it's not fair to the products and it's insulting to those who have an open mind and have tried the product in question. As an Industry member I'd expect better...
Are you F*****g me kidding Dave, insulted who, Furutech? I never judged anything just said the design is similar to VFD wires, look below for comparison. Besides Dave tell me what the individual elements of this wire translate to in sonic values! The difference between you & I is that I'm not a fanboy and don't drop my pants just because it has Furutech on it! Tell me do they have the monopoly of any of the conductors they used in this wire? No one else is making similar conductors?
david
I don't see anything insulting about it Dave and that's all you have to comment on?
david
Once again, I remember why comparing power cables is such a PITA. Most of the cables are using different connectors, different gauge wire, different philosophies and more. Each one has its plusses and minuses...and no two sound alike. None, at least in my comparison so far is neutral. Come to think of it, i don't think I have ever heard a truly neutral power cable...
DDK, when was the last time that you did a power cable comparison. Your results?
DDK, when was the last time that you did a power cable comparison. Your results?
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