Best music software?

[Kal Rubinson]

Intel i7-6700 sky lake 1151

Much more than adequate for the stated task.

 

[Taiko Audio]

In my experience there's no such thing as "Best music software".

Every Operating system and Music playback software comes with it's own unique "flavour". And that flavour is highly tuneable / variable to boot. These all also produce different results on different hardware.

There are many Linux distributions. But there may actually be even more "flavours" of windows as each version sounds different. For example Windows 10 comes in many different versions. There's the original, launched in 2015, superseded by versions 1511, 1607 (Windows server 2016 is based on this build), 1703, 1709, 1803 and now, just (re)released last week, 1809 (which is what Windows server 2019 is based on). These version numbers are generally year-month of release, or rather intended as 1809 should have been 1811 I guess. In theory everybody using Windows 10 should be automatically updated to the latest version, however most Audiophile users choose to disable Automatic updating hence they can be running any of these versions. Then there are different product trees, like Home, Pro, Enterprise/Education. And different levels of stripping or aftermarket optimization software packages/scripts used.

For Linux the more interesting versions are those optimized for Audio use, like Euphony, Audiophile Linux, GentooPlayer, Daphile, Snakeoil etc.

For Windows 10 generally newer is better, BUT newer also typically comes with more "Bloatware", hence I should rephrase that to "newer is better after ridding it of added bloat", which requires either purchasing optimization software or a significant DIY investment.

Windows Server has the ability to run in "core mode", this means you will not have a useable desktop, just a command prompt, this requires significant effort and a steep learning curve to operate, but it significantly reduces OS overhead. Audiophile Optimizer is a commercially available software package to make this mode of operation easier.

Windows 10 Enterprise comes in very interesting versions dubbed LTSB 2016 (based on 1607) or the just released LTSC 2019 (based on 1809). LTSB/C stands for Long Term Servicing Branch/Channel. This is a stripped down version for systems requiring stability, for running on appliances like cash registers, ATM machines or Industrial systems. It lacks most of the Windows "bloat" and a lot of what is left can be relatively easily be disabled. Windows update can be safely left running as it will only optionally apply security updates or bugfixes and those will not be forced. Alas it's only available to OEM's and requires a Volume Licensing Agreement to be signed, so useless for installation on a single PC, as you will not be able to activate it / run it legally. Which is not stopping some users from using it anyway, illegally/restricted and all. (This is not a suggestion you should of course, but it's a big shame as it's great for Audiophiles).

I personally greatly prefer a heavy stripped down version of Windows 10 for both usability and sound quality. But this is not something you can get right in a weekend or even a summer holiday. Ideally you'd have a group of people working on it together, sharing the workload, as you basically have to sonically evaluate every (batch) of modification(s) you make. For people willing to go this far The Windows Assessment and Deployment Kit (Windows ADK) is a good place to start. Ideal is modifying the Windows Installation Media as you can remove "bloat" right there so it will never be installed onto your PC by the windows setup procedure. Once installed a lot of these are notoriously hard to disable and/or remove..

 

[Koegz]

Taiko Audio, WOW! Thanks for the input. I will up date windows. Also have been considering AO. Installing scares me a little. I will now give it a spin. Really appreciate your take on things. Most helpful. ?
p.kogan

 

[dr k]

In my experience there's no such thing as "Best music software".

Every Operating system and Music playback software comes with it's own unique "flavour". And that flavour is highly tuneable / variable to boot. These all also produce different results on different hardware.

There are many Linux distributions. But there may actually be even more "flavours" of windows as each version sounds different. For example Windows 10 comes in many different versions. There's the original, launched in 2015, superseded by versions 1511, 1607 (Windows server 2016 is based on this build), 1703, 1709, 1803 and now, just (re)released last week, 1809 (which is what Windows server 2019 is based on). These version numbers are generally year-month of release, or rather intended as 1809 should have been 1811 I guess. In theory everybody using Windows 10 should be automatically updated to the latest version, however most Audiophile users choose to disable Automatic updating hence they can be running any of these versions. Then there are different product trees, like Home, Pro, Enterprise/Education. And different levels of stripping or aftermarket optimization software packages/scripts used.

For Linux the more interesting versions are those optimized for Audio use, like Euphony, Audiophile Linux, GentooPlayer, Daphile, Snakeoil etc.

For Windows 10 generally newer is better, BUT newer also typically comes with more "Bloatware", hence I should rephrase that to "newer is better after ridding it of added bloat", which requires either purchasing optimization software or a significant DIY investment.

Windows Server has the ability to run in "core mode", this means you will not have a useable desktop, just a command prompt, this requires significant effort and a steep learning curve to operate, but it significantly reduces OS overhead. Audiophile Optimizer is a commercially available software package to make this mode of operation easier.

Windows 10 Enterprise comes in very interesting versions dubbed LTSB 2016 (based on 1607) or the just released LTSC 2019 (based on 1809). LTSB/C stands for Long Term Servicing Branch/Channel. This is a stripped down version for systems requiring stability, for running on appliances like cash registers, ATM machines or Industrial systems. It lacks most of the Windows "bloat" and a lot of what is left can be relatively easily be disabled. Windows update can be safely left running as it will only optionally apply security updates or bugfixes and those will not be forced. Alas it's only available to OEM's and requires a Volume Licensing Agreement to be signed, so useless for installation on a single PC, as you will not be able to activate it / run it legally. Which is not stopping some users from using it anyway, illegally/restricted and all. (This is not a suggestion you should of course, but it's a big shame as it's great for Audiophiles).

I personally greatly prefer a heavy stripped down version of Windows 10 for both usability and sound quality. But this is not something you can get right in a weekend or even a summer holiday. Ideally you'd have a group of people working on it together, sharing the workload, as you basically have to sonically evaluate every (batch) of modification(s) you make. For people willing to go this far The Windows Assessment and Deployment Kit (Windows ADK) is a good place to start. Ideal is modifying the Windows Installation Media as you can remove "bloat" right there so it will never be installed onto your PC by the windows setup procedure. Once installed a lot of these are notoriously hard to disable and/or remove..

The reason why I’m sticking with Mac OS and not allowing automatic updates.

 

[sbo6]

Wow, you have some personal issues to resolve. Attacking me will not serve you well. I didn't realize my answers had to follow your guidelines so your world doesn't fall apart. I apologize for causing you distress.

My point is building a music server is relatively easy to anyone who some computer knowledge. Now I'm not claiming anyone can build an SGM quality reference server. But I do claim building a reference quality TT is more difficult than reference quality server. Do I need to give you or anyone my credentials? No. Nor do I require your credentials. I give people the benefit of the doubt. This is not a peer reviewed science journal, although I have published multiple peer reviewed articles.

To answer your question, my definition of reference (TT or any audio equipment) is an all out engineering assault on building a state of the art piece of gear to extract the best possible sound.

"A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it." You made this so simple. Can you explain to me how? There are many mechanical and electrical engineers who have spent decades and millions of dollars trying to perfect TT design. Perhaps you can enlighten us and these engineers.

"Second, you infer a Music PC is easier because you can buy off the shelf parts, but then continue by saying your Engineer buddy can't "optimizing the OS for audio playback" so he had to hire someone. Why? - Because it's too difficult. ;-) "
Now, now. I did mention the software side was more difficult than putting together the hardware, didn't I? He is not a software engineer. But for the software engineer, it was relatively simple. Seems like you are also guilty of cherry picking and interpreting my answer to suit your needs.

I suppose I can go further and respond to the plethora of questions you have, but I see no fruitful outcome.

Please continue with your personal attacks. You have a knack for belittling people you don't agree with.

Now now, my friend, you need to grow thicker skin. Here's a reality check - you can dish it out but can't take it. Food for thought. Enjoy the music!

 

[dr k]

Now now, my friend, you need to grow thicker skin. Here's a reality check - you can dish it out but can't take it. Food for thought. Enjoy the music!

Right back at ya. I have been civil. You decided to go on with the personal attacks. Take heed of what others have said you. Time to ignore you.

 

[Legolas]

In my experience there's no such thing as "Best music software".

Every Operating system and Music playback software comes with it's own unique "flavour". And that flavour is highly tuneable / variable to boot. These all also produce different results on different hardware.

There are many Linux distributions. But there may actually be even more "flavours" of windows as each version sounds different. For example Windows 10 comes in many different versions. There's the original, launched in 2015, superseded by versions 1511, 1607 (Windows server 2016 is based on this build), 1703, 1709, 1803 and now, just (re)released last week, 1809 (which is what Windows server 2019 is based on). These version numbers are generally year-month of release, or rather intended as 1809 should have been 1811 I guess. In theory everybody using Windows 10 should be automatically updated to the latest version, however most Audiophile users choose to disable Automatic updating hence they can be running any of these versions. Then there are different product trees, like Home, Pro, Enterprise/Education. And different levels of stripping or aftermarket optimization software packages/scripts used.

For Linux the more interesting versions are those optimized for Audio use, like Euphony, Audiophile Linux, GentooPlayer, Daphile, Snakeoil etc.

For Windows 10 generally newer is better, BUT newer also typically comes with more "Bloatware", hence I should rephrase that to "newer is better after ridding it of added bloat", which requires either purchasing optimization software or a significant DIY investment.

Windows Server has the ability to run in "core mode", this means you will not have a useable desktop, just a command prompt, this requires significant effort and a steep learning curve to operate, but it significantly reduces OS overhead. Audiophile Optimizer is a commercially available software package to make this mode of operation easier.

Windows 10 Enterprise comes in very interesting versions dubbed LTSB 2016 (based on 1607) or the just released LTSC 2019 (based on 1809). LTSB/C stands for Long Term Servicing Branch/Channel. This is a stripped down version for systems requiring stability, for running on appliances like cash registers, ATM machines or Industrial systems. It lacks most of the Windows "bloat" and a lot of what is left can be relatively easily be disabled. Windows update can be safely left running as it will only optionally apply security updates or bugfixes and those will not be forced. Alas it's only available to OEM's and requires a Volume Licensing Agreement to be signed, so useless for installation on a single PC, as you will not be able to activate it / run it legally. Which is not stopping some users from using it anyway, illegally/restricted and all. (This is not a suggestion you should of course, but it's a big shame as it's great for Audiophiles).

I personally greatly prefer a heavy stripped down version of Windows 10 for both usability and sound quality. But this is not something you can get right in a weekend or even a summer holiday. Ideally you'd have a group of people working on it together, sharing the workload, as you basically have to sonically evaluate every (batch) of modification(s) you make. For people willing to go this far The Windows Assessment and Deployment Kit (Windows ADK) is a good place to start. Ideal is modifying the Windows Installation Media as you can remove "bloat" right there so it will never be installed onto your PC by the windows setup procedure. Once installed a lot of these are notoriously hard to disable and/or remove..

Really? Is this so difficult. If a certain version of player software is used, and the operating system is a certain level / version, are you really saying other software or processes affect the sound as much as you state? Once you get the main processes disabled and the chip is basically idling along, I fail to see there are more things system based to worry about. IMO it is more about power supply, connections used, cables, and avoiding noise injection as much as possible.

I guess my situation is less complex as I never do up sampling of in PC filtering, data conversion etc. Thoughts?

 

[Legolas]

On this subject, and IMO, a believe all music server / players using their own player software are going to find their market shrink a lot over the next 12 months. Roon is such an attractive interface and sounds great, I think the others will seriously struggle to convince users to operate anything else. I am hoping Aurender or such models will take on Roon and offer a single box high end Roon server. I really don't want a 2 or 3 box solution, LPS and cables all over the place. And I want a fairly open interface, not a closed system that could be out of date or simply stop working a few years from now. High end servers are not cheap, so there we have a problem, as traditionally PCs become bin fodder after 3 or 4 years due to speed developments and getting shut out of software updates. A dead end in other words. I don't want to have a paper weight in 4 years.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Really? Is this so difficult. If a certain version of player software is used, and the operating system is a certain level / version, are you really saying other software or processes affect the sound as much as you state? Once you get the main processes disabled and the chip is basically idling along, I fail to see there are more things system based to worry about. IMO it is more about power supply, connections used, cables, and avoiding noise injection as much as possible.

I guess my situation is less complex as I never do up sampling of in PC filtering, data conversion etc. Thoughts?

The issue here is the "chip" is never idling along but in fact quite busy, all the time. Memory chips are entirely refreshed every 7.8 microseconds (JEDEC standard), more frequently at higher temperatures, this is also when memory draws its maximum current, just as an example to highlight it will never be idle, as next to this it will constantly perform read/write operations anyway. The cpu is constantly executing instructions. The heavier the OS, the fancier the user interface, the busier it will be. Therefor reducing OS footprint reduces activity, by reducing Memory read/writes, general I/O and cpu queues. And trust me, those queues are never empty. Executing instructions also comes with delays (wait states) (latency) which means more "chip" active time. The fancier the music playback software, Roon being about the fanciest currently, the more processing required. Next to reducing OS overhead from the software side, you can also increase memory bandwidth, cpu processing power and storage speed. Counter intuitively this actually lowers the amount of Active Time and the actual amount of RFI/EMI noise versus time, but the current consumption peaks are much higher which requires a beefier power supply (expensive). This is where you enter the trade off grey area, where you have low computing power systems with high queue depths versus high computing power systems with low queue depths. How this equates into the overall noise level of the system is quite dependant on the power supply design, radiation patterns and filtering.

 

[Solypsa]

I knew there was a reason I like analog!

(Partially kidding ... partially not)

 

[Koegz]

Taiko could you please tell me how much the upgrade from SGM 2015 to evo is? Without shipping? Do you do these up grades in the USA as well? Thanks

 

[Taiko Audio]

Taiko could you please tell me how much the upgrade from SGM 2015 to evo is? Without shipping? Do you do these up grades in the USA as well? Thanks

I've sent you a PM.

 

[CGabriel]

Oh jeez. Playing music shouldn’t require a Phd in computer science.

Sometimes I get fed up with it and just put a CD in the player or drop a needle.

There is an opportunity for some entrepreneurial company to simplify all this nonsense.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Oh jeez. Playing music shouldn’t require a Phd in computer science.

Sometimes I get fed up with it and just put a CD in the player or drop a needle.

There is an opportunity for some entrepreneurial company to simplify all this nonsense.

Well there's always the option to buy a fully pre configured commercial music server of course

 

[Number9]

On this subject, and IMO, a believe all music server / players using their own player software are going to find their market shrink a lot over the next 12 months. Roon is such an attractive interface and sounds great, I think the others will seriously struggle to convince users to operate anything else. I am hoping Aurender or such models will take on Roon and offer a single box high end Roon server. I really don't want a 2 or 3 box solution, LPS and cables all over the place. And I want a fairly open interface, not a closed system that could be out of date or simply stop working a few years from now. High end servers are not cheap, so there we have a problem, as traditionally PCs become bin fodder after 3 or 4 years due to speed developments and getting shut out of software updates. A dead end in other words. I don't want to have a paper weight in 4 years.

Eventually our mega expensive DAC’s will be outdated paperweights too with advances moving at the same rate as the servers. How do you justify promoting one while condemning he other?

 

[microstrip]

The issue here is the "chip" is never idling along but in fact quite busy, all the time. Memory chips are entirely refreshed every 7.8 microseconds (JEDEC standard), more frequently at higher temperatures, this is also when memory draws its maximum current, just as an example to highlight it will never be idle, as next to this it will constantly perform read/write operations anyway. The cpu is constantly executing instructions. The heavier the OS, the fancier the user interface, the busier it will be. Therefor reducing OS footprint reduces activity, by reducing Memory read/writes, general I/O and cpu queues. And trust me, those queues are never empty. Executing instructions also comes with delays (wait states) (latency) which means more "chip" active time. The fancier the music playback software, Roon being about the fanciest currently, the more processing required. Next to reducing OS overhead from the software side, you can also increase memory bandwidth, cpu processing power and storage speed. Counter intuitively this actually lowers the amount of Active Time and the actual amount of RFI/EMI noise versus time, but the current consumption peaks are much higher which requires a beefier power supply (expensive). This is where you enter the trade off grey area, where you have low computing power systems with high queue depths versus high computing power systems with low queue depths. How this equates into the overall noise level of the system is quite dependant on the power supply design, radiation patterns and filtering.

Overall noise level of the computer system affecting sound quality of the DAC? It seems we are still at the pre-childwood of digital. Why can´t we simply clean the data before sending it to the DAC? Don't you think it may be cheaper and more logical to a have a second simple machine just for this purpose?

 

[microstrip]

On this subject, and IMO, a believe all music server / players using their own player software are going to find their market shrink a lot over the next 12 months. Roon is such an attractive interface and sounds great, I think the others will seriously struggle to convince users to operate anything else. I am hoping Aurender or such models will take on Roon and offer a single box high end Roon server. I really don't want a 2 or 3 box solution, LPS and cables all over the place. And I want a fairly open interface, not a closed system that could be out of date or simply stop working a few years from now. High end servers are not cheap, so there we have a problem, as traditionally PCs become bin fodder after 3 or 4 years due to speed developments and getting shut out of software updates. A dead end in other words. I don't want to have a paper weight in 4 years.

Roon still has many problems for a classic music lover, even with last update. I am using it because my music files are in small number and still listen mostly to CD's and like its convenience, but it is a disaster to import and search classical music.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Overall noise level of the computer system affecting sound quality of the DAC? It seems we are still at the pre-childwood of digital. Why can´t we simply clean the data before sending it to the DAC? Don't you think it may be cheaper and more logical to a have a second simple machine just for this purpose?

Imho every component in your system influences all others.

 

[caesar]

Thanks to all for shedding some light on this confusing subject. So anyone willing to venture a guess, will Roon Nucleus kill off streamers like Aurender?

And will DACs with internal ethernet modules like (Ayre, Bricasti, MSB, etc.) kill of the Roon Nuc and the Aurender-type streamers? Why buy an extra box when your dac will just have an ethernet jack?

Anyone willing to make a prediction?

 

[asiufy]

caesar,

The DACs w/ Ethernet modules are still just endpoints. You need something to host the files and/or Roon Core. That's when a good server comes in.

I've found out that, even over Ethernet, better servers will always sound better, and just about anything will sound better than a PC/NAS running Roon Core. The difference is shocking, and even though I kept Roon Core running on my NAS in the store, we now have dedicated servers (assorted Innuos devices) doing that duty now, for much, MUCH better results. The Innuos Statement in particular was a reveleation. Going from the NAS to the Statement, it was like playing two different versions of the same recording, such was the amount of extra detail and clarity that the NAS was obscuring...

Roon Nucleus, as well as the Innuos products, can be used as Ethernet-attached, Roon Core devices. No USB. And WILL provide a remarkable upgrade over a regular PC/NAS.