Best music software?

Taiko Audio

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There are lot of unknown factors in what affects sound quality in what way.

As a puzzling example, In the Netherlands Tidal playback sounds superior over NAS file storage. It's even challenging to beat Tidal playback quality with highly optimized internal music server storage. In the US most of our clients report Tidal to be inferior sounding to both NAS and internal music sever storage. There are many infrastructural differences between here and the US, however why any of those would have an effect on the final sound quality is very hard to explain.

Another is why a very slim, purposely built, Linux OS never manages to approach the more 3 dimensional, textural superior, fuller sound which a stripped Windows install is ultimately capable of, while still being significantly more lightweight. There are many differences between these 2 but what's really causing this, I don't think anybody knows.
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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caesar,

The DACs w/ Ethernet modules are still just endpoints. You need something to host the files and/or Roon Core. That's when a good server comes in.

I've found out that, even over Ethernet, better servers will always sound better, and just about anything will sound better than a PC/NAS running Roon Core. The difference is shocking, and even though I kept Roon Core running on my NAS in the store, we now have dedicated servers (assorted Innuos devices) doing that duty now, for much, MUCH better results. The Innuos Statement in particular was a reveleation. Going from the NAS to the Statement, it was like playing two different versions of the same recording, such was the amount of extra detail and clarity that the NAS was obscuring...

Roon Nucleus, as well as the Innuos products, can be used as Ethernet-attached, Roon Core devices. No USB. And WILL provide a remarkable upgrade over a regular PC/NAS.
Thank you! Very interesting data points.
P.S. I briefly chatted with the Innous people at RMAF. Very nice, knowledgeable people.
 

sbo6

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In the US most of our clients report Tidal to be inferior sounding to both NAS and internal music sever storage.

2x agree with this statement.
 
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dr k

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The issue here is the "chip" is never idling along but in fact quite busy, all the time. Memory chips are entirely refreshed every 7.8 microseconds (JEDEC standard), more frequently at higher temperatures, this is also when memory draws its maximum current, just as an example to highlight it will never be idle, as next to this it will constantly perform read/write operations anyway. The cpu is constantly executing instructions. The heavier the OS, the fancier the user interface, the busier it will be. Therefor reducing OS footprint reduces activity, by reducing Memory read/writes, general I/O and cpu queues. And trust me, those queues are never empty. Executing instructions also comes with delays (wait states) (latency) which means more "chip" active time. The fancier the music playback software, Roon being about the fanciest currently, the more processing required. Next to reducing OS overhead from the software side, you can also increase memory bandwidth, cpu processing power and storage speed. Counter intuitively this actually lowers the amount of Active Time and the actual amount of RFI/EMI noise versus time, but the current consumption peaks are much higher which requires a beefier power supply (expensive). This is where you enter the trade off grey area, where you have low computing power systems with high queue depths versus high computing power systems with low queue depths. How this equates into the overall noise level of the system is quite dependant on the power supply design, radiation patterns and filtering.

I couldn’t agree with you more. The less background processes that are active, the better the sound quality. In my Mac Mini server by dB Audiolabs, part of the OS code was rewritten to turn off nonessential audio related processes and optimize sound quality. The results are audible and not by a small margin. The reason I don’t allow automatic updates of my OS is each new update gets fatter with new added security features, non-audio processes, etc that usually bogs the CPU down.
 
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barrows

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I couldn’t agree with you more. The less background processes that are active, the better the sound quality. In my Mac Mini server by dB Audiolabs, part of the OS code was rewritten to turn off nonessential audio related processes and optimize sound quality. The results are audible and not by a small margin. The reason I don’t allow automatic updates of my OS is each new update gets fatter with new added security features, non-audio processes, etc that usually bogs the CPU down.


The solution to all of these problems is to use Ethernet to distribute audio to the location of the audio system. Then one can have the server and music storage located far away (in another room, basement, closet, etc) where its noise (electrical, EMI, radiated, etc) will not impact the audio system itself. The server, in another room, can be running even the most sophisticated software (like HQPlayer and ROON together, oversampling to DSD 512, for example) and if it is 30 feet away and powered from a different circuit, the noise made by the server will not matter to the audio system. Ethernet is isolated by transformers (for more robust isolation one can use optical fiber Ethernet) and transmits little noise to the endpoint (Renderer). With this approach one can run even the most sophisticated playback software, without a concern for the noise it produces. Just choose a very good, low power, ultra low noise, purpose built for audio Renderer and one can avoid these problems.
 

hifimckinney

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Mar 17, 2017
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Overall noise level of the computer system affecting sound quality of the DAC? It seems we are still at the pre-childwood of digital.:) Why can´t we simply clean the data before sending it to the DAC? Don't you think it may be cheaper and more logical to a have a second simple machine just for this purpose?

I think, Audinate's Dante based connectivity does something like this. In my current setup where in one of the arrangements my Apple TV was connected to Yggdrasil DAC using Lifatec. I was enjoying this setup but just for curiosity what I did was, got a HDMI to Coax converter, connected it to Apple TV and then routed the digital data (PCM) through Dante network. Please note that on DAC side, I already have Dnate to AES conversion. I am really happy with the result compared to what I got when Apple TV was feeding DAC using Lifatec optical cable.

I really don't know what Dante does (my confident guess is that removes the jitter drastically and rearranges data properly) but the outcome is very relaxed soundstage with no perceived boundary. I think this is the situation what people refer as 'system getting out of way from between you and music; very exciting situation to be in.
 

wisnon

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Barrows, if the renderer run on Linux, then the overall sound will be Linux-like.
 

barrows

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Barrows, if the renderer run on Linux, then the overall sound will be Linux-like.

This is very simplistic and less than accurate response. there are many, many variations of Linux software for music playback, and many different hardware varieties. All of these factors make a difference to sound quality and anyone who associates a certain sound with one variety of Linux software and hardware combination and expects to hear the same type of sound with completely different software and hardware combinations is being ignorant.
The Linux OS required to run just a Renderer, which has very, very little processing to do, is completely different than the Linux required to run a full fledged server. Additionally, the hardware requirements of a Renderer are completely different than those of a full fledged server (many times less processing power, no hard drives, etc, etc).
 

wisnon

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All you said is true yet still a linux renderer will impart that thinner Linux sound. I have a Linux Guru pal who said the same and after a minth of pulling his hair out, he had to concede. Nothing beats direct trial and error. Practice beats pretext.
 
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barrows

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Yes, nothing beats direct trial and error, and unless you try every version, you do not know. I have no issues with "thin" sound using a Renderer which happens to run a Linux based OS, this is nonsense.
"Fat" sound usually means there is a problem, as fat sound is caused by artifacts, tubes, for example, are known for a fatter sound, and measurements prove that the difference between tube and solid state is that tubes have more distortion.

If a system has "thin: sound with a good Linux based Renderer, the correct response is to look for the cause of the problem in the rest of the system, not the software. Tipped up loudspeakers, for example, are made by many high end manufacturers (likely because in short auditions they seem to reveal more detail) and are often the cause. Also, neglecting to tune the system via power conditioning, or using components which are not adequately addressing the possibilities of RF intrusion to the signal are also common culprits of "thin" sound. Blaming Linux is plain wrong.

The above are examples of where pure subjective system evaluation can go wrong, without an accurate technical understanding of what is really happening. I am all for system evaluation by listening, but without a technical understanding of what is really going on, it is all too easy to blame the wrong component for a certain sonic attribute.
 

wisnon

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Tried in several systems and with a Linux guru.
I will never say never totally, but to me its pretty conclusive. As you tell a different experience and you are credible...I am not inclined to doubt you. Lets call it subjective differences until we ever meet in person and thrash it out.
 

barrows

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Hi Wisnon, sure... I will just add this anecdote:

A couple of years back Sonore was exhibiting at RMAF. We had a system consisting of our top level Renderer: Sonore Signature Rendu SE-USB cable-DAC (ESS based DIY, in synchronous mode with solid state output stage)-and an Ncore based class D amplification to some very high end stand mount speakers (small room at RMAF). We were sending only DSD 256 to the DAC as I recall, oversampling using Audirvana + on a Mac Mini in the bathroom.

Lukasz Fikus came into our room and declared that the sound was wonderful, engaging and enveloping, and remarked how he was surprised there was not a tube in sight. He also noted how much (thin), non-engaging sound he was hearing at the show. The sound was not thin, but our Renderer was certainly running a Linux variation (Sonic Orbiter for Rendu is proprietary software for Sonore Renderers).
 

paul79

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IMO, Networked Endpoint is a very excellent option. Everything seems to matter though, in front of my endpoint. Treat all links right though, and it becomes very good. Mine runs Linux, but is customized playback software. Opposite of thin, but I cannot say that the ultimate endgame in sonics resides with Linux. I don't have experience with anything PC based. Only Mac and Endpoint with regards to audio. There are companies that believe in the end, Windows provides the best sound once optimized, but I don't know why that is. Thin, or otherwise.

I think that an endpoint based digital source has as much potential as any other digital source. It seems to be a nicely transparent way to do it. I am blown away by the differences just NAS optimizations make in my system.
 

Legolas

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Has anyone tried the new Roon Nucleus server? It seems fairy cost effective, and combining Roon knowledge of their own software (and resources) with Linux engineers. Here's a quote:

AN OPERATING SYSTEM BUILT FROM THE GROUND UP
Rather than use a desktop or server operating system like Windows, a Linux distribution, or a system-builder tool, we realized that a truly bespoke operating system is an area in which we can add real value. Roon OS an optimized Linux-based operating system developed by Roon Labs to provide the best reliability and performance for what Roon does – networking, storage, and fast database access – and nothing else. The white paper provides loads of detail about how we achieved this, and what’s unique about our over-the-air software/firmware update process.
 

Taiko Audio

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Tried in several systems and with a Linux guru.
I will never say never totally, but to me its pretty conclusive. As you tell a different experience and you are credible...I am not inclined to doubt you. Lets call it subjective differences until we ever meet in person and thrash it out.

We do have the same experience. Interestingly if you use the generic Windows USB Audio 2.0 driver (included with build 1703 and later) the sound is much closer. Unfortunately the difference is there with networked streaming as well so it does not seem to be "just an USB driver thing".

In defence of Linux, most of the available "audiophile" distributions do sound significantly cleaner and more transparent out of the box. To get a similar level of transparency out of windows requires a lot of tuning and tinkering. There are several tools available to take most of this out of your hands, but you still have to go through the trouble of installing these and evaluating all the options. For some this is fun, for most it's a nightmare though.
 

Legolas

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To add to the "mystery", In our workshop in The Netherlands Tidal sounds significantly better then Qobuz!
Are you using the Tidal app or porting through Roon. The Tidal app is garbage. Also Tidal has applied various updates along the way to it's app, and it has been all over the place IMO, from ok, bad, to really bad.
 

nonesup

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In Spain and for me, Qobuz sounds better than Tidal. I had Tidal and when Qobuz gave sevice to Spain I tried it and subscribed to Sublime +.
 

Taiko Audio

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Are you using the Tidal app or porting through Roon. The Tidal app is garbage. Also Tidal has applied various updates along the way to it's app, and it has been all over the place IMO, from ok, bad, to really bad.

Tidal porting through Roon, but used Bubble Upnp to compare Tidal to Qobuz as Roon does not support Qobuz (yet).
 

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