Best music software?

Koegz

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Oct 29, 2016
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sbo6, I get what you are saying. The issue here is building a music server. It is not like building speakers or a preamp or even a car. A computer is quite easy to alter and configure in comparison. All that you requir is readily available. There is no costly analog section. The largest price accelerator is generally appearance. The cost of finishing can be high. What hour eyes see can often determine value. True or not. Your car comparison is a Terrible one. A better would be a tv. Although with OLED and size, maybe not. I have seen some really good looking severs. SGM EVO would be one. What I gather is $15000. I am certain it is extremely well designed and easy to operate. Making for a very nice experience. That is what you are paying for after all. To many it is well worth it. Keep in mind though that Music serves after market values tend to drop like a rock. They are used computers after all. Though I would admit at times I have considered it. If our concern is with bit perfect, what most I believe are, a well designed and built server should be easy to configure under $5000. I have one. & it’s getting easier all the time. ??
 

Koegz

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Oct 29, 2016
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Wisnon, please explain analog pathways in the computer. My understanding is that all that occurs within a computer is purely in the digital domain. Is your dac in the computer? This is the only explanation I can come up with. Thanks
 

wisnon

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Dec 12, 2011
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Digital is information...it doesnt "exist" in the real world. Its simply encoded electrical signals. Mess that up and you mess up the decoding process. Quality power matters always in audio.

Not sure what your question above is about:responsibility of Dac and clock???
 

Koegz

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Oct 29, 2016
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Wisnon,
You wrote “it’s best to have great analog signal path, low jitter continuous rendering of the music stream.” As far as I know in a usb asynchronous dac’s clock contals jitter. The dac out puts the analog info. Unless you are referring to ripping cds. But still don’t understand the analog signal path. There is no analog that I know of in my server. This is what I/we are typing about, the music server. I don’t mean to be argumentative just do not understand your point. It maybe me. So please make me understand. Thanks for understanding p.kogan
 

sbo6

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I think astrostar is mirroring the feelings of many audiophiles who have become numb to the often insane pricing in high end audio. People are not used to paying $12k+ for a computer, which is essentially a commodity. Not saying some of these server aren’t worth the price, but we’ve all seen how something basic like a cable or a fuse for example can get 10x to 100x markup just because it’s labeled ‘audiophile’.
If I'm reading Astrostar's comment - a music server is a basic computer that does little and as such shouldn't cost much. You're saying - audiophile products often have extreme markups. 2 different things. I agree, as in any market products can be "marked up" but only as much as the market will bear. And if companies want to mark them up and it sustains their market / business model, good for them. But it remains that a music server (which IMO is not a commodity if you have no other method to facilitate playing media) is far from a simple device, and in fact is far more complex than a vinyl setup, and we know how much they can cost...
 

dr k

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If I'm reading Astrostar's comment - a music server is a basic computer that does little and as such shouldn't cost much. You're saying - audiophile products often have extreme markups. 2 different things. I agree, as in any market products can be "marked up" but only as much as the market will bear. And if companies want to mark them up and it sustains their market / business model, good for them. But it remains that a music server (which IMO is not a commodity if you have no other method to facilitate playing media) is far from a simple device, and in fact is far more complex than a vinyl setup, and we know how much they can cost...

I would argue a server is not as complex as a vinyl setup, or not even comparable because they are apples and oranges. A vinyl rig requires much more maintenance and time setting up than any music server l’ve ever tried. That’s why I got out of vinyl and went the digital server route. As far as development and building a server versus a vinyl rig, they’re completely different. Vinyl requires precision mechanical components such as the cartridge, arm, platter, motor, and plinth that require careful isolation and resonance control. Companies like Technics spent millions of dollars in research back in the 70’s and 80’s developing its direct drive, which is still the most stable motor you can get. The engineering that goes into a truly reference class turntable is heroic. As far as I can tell, all hardware components for a server are readily available and not that expensive. Of course chips are complex devices, but they are commodities and are cheap and readily available. It’s the software side that requires a lot of work, but that’s not the problem of the end user for the most part in a well executed server.

What ‘market will bear’. Sometimes audiophile products will survive because of clever marketing and some rich audiophiles believe they’re worth the money like $60,000 speaker cables. So it makes $5000 speaker cables look ‘cheap’ in comparison. Doesn’t it seem absurd what the market will bear? I don’t agree that it’s a good thing if a company marks up their product to absurd levels based on clever and false advertising. But that’s another can of worms.
 
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sbo6

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Just because the parts are off the shelf and available for assembly for a music server (vs. a vinyl setup) doesn't mean the device itself is less complex. It's the opposite, you're mixing up optimization with design. A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it. A music server in an nutshell is converting a digital file (constructed magnetically via HDD or via silicon chips for SSD) to analog and prepping in sequential packets through a universal protocol to be delivered to a digital converter.
 

dr k

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Just because the parts are off the shelf and available for assembly for a music server (vs. a vinyl setup) doesn't mean the device itself is less complex. It's the opposite, you're mixing up optimization with design. A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it. A music server in an nutshell is converting a digital file (constructed magnetically via HDD or via silicon chips for SSD) to analog and prepping in sequential packets through a universal protocol to be delivered to a digital converter.

No, you are mixing up my comment. I’m am fully aware of the difference between optimization and design. I specifically said designing chips is complex and by logical extension handling of digital information, but building a server is not because all the parts are readily available as commodities are and cheap by audiophile standards. The design part has already done by the chip manufacturers. You can easily buy MBs, memory, USB boards, fanless cooling, etc. I have an industry insider friend who manufactures music servers. He has built both PC and Mac based servers. He is an engineer and an audiophile and has admitted to me building a music server on the hardware side is not a complicated job. What is difficult is optimizing the OS for audio playback. He had to hire a software engineer to rewrite the OS code for audio. He also has confided in me that designing and manufacturing a reference turn table are much more complex than building a server. So complex that he didn’t even want to get into designing a reference TT. I’m in total agreement. “A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it.” This statement shows me you know little of what’s required to design and manufacture a reference quality TT. If I were to ask you to design and build a reference class TT or a server, which would you find more difficult? I have no vested interest in either technology, but my preferred choice is digital because of its convenience. You seem to take this personally. Why?
 

sbo6

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No, you are mixing up my comment. I’m am fully aware of the difference between optimization and design. I specifically said designing chips is complex and by logical extension handling of digital information, but building a server is not because all the parts are readily available as commodities are and cheap by audiophile standards. The design part has already done by the chip manufacturers. You can easily buy MBs, memory, USB boards, fanless cooling, etc. I have an industry insider friend who manufactures music servers. He has built both PC and Mac based servers. He is an engineer and an audiophile and has admitted to me building a music server on the hardware side is not a complicated job. What is difficult is optimizing the OS for audio playback. He had to hire a software engineer to rewrite the OS code for audio. He also has confided in me thatdesigning and manufacturing a reference turn table are much more complex than building a server. So complex that he didn’t even want to get into designing a reference TT. I’m in total agreement. “A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it.” This statement shows me you know little of what’s required to design and manufacture a reference quality TT. If I were to ask you to design and build a reference class TT or a server, which would you find more difficult? I have no vested interest in either technology, but my preferred choice is digital because of its convenience. You seem to take this personally. Why?

First, you're changing your statement to meet your argument - First, you stated and I quote, " I would argue a server is not as complex as a vinyl setup, or not even comparable because they are apples and oranges. A vinyl rig requires much more maintenance and time setting up than any music server l’ve ever tried. "

However, your latest statement reads, "designing and manufacturing a reference turn table are much more complex than building a server." and, "If I were to ask you to design and build a reference class TT or a server, which would you find more difficult?"

So now you've moved from a generic Music Server vs. a TT to reference class components, a very different question. You change your question to meet your position. So there's that. And while your at it, define whats reference level means to you.

Second, you infer a Music PC is easier because you can buy off the shelf parts, but then continue by saying your Engineer buddy can't "optimizing the OS for audio playback" so he had to hire someone. Why? - Because it's too difficult. ;-)

Third, you base your new stance (based on reference quality comparisons) on one engineer, who you concur with. Is your friend's Music server competitive? How does it sound? Has he employed a PSU like the SGM (what I would consider reference level and fully customized, not off the shelf PSU)?

Also, you criticize my simple explanation of what a vinyl rig does, care to enlighten me? Based on your amateur statements I'll wager you have minimal industry experience and marginal at best relevant education. Net is - you talk a lot but seem to know not nearly as much and change your position to fit your latest argument. Why don't you enlighten us with your credentials and how a vinyl setup functions?

Finally, Im not sure why you think I take any of our correspondence as personal, purely conversational for me. I do find your opinions as entertaining, I'll say that..
 

Legolas

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First, you're changing your statement to meet your argument - First, you stated and I quote, " I would argue a server is not as complex as a vinyl setup, or not even comparable because they are apples and oranges. A vinyl rig requires much more maintenance and time setting up than any music server l’ve ever tried. "

However, your latest statement reads, "designing and manufacturing a reference turn table are much more complex than building a server." and, "If I were to ask you to design and build a reference class TT or a server, which would you find more difficult?"

So now you've moved from a generic Music Server vs. a TT to reference class components, a very different question. You change your question to meet your position. So there's that. And while your at it, define whats reference level means to you.

Second, you infer a Music PC is easier because you can buy off the shelf parts, but then continue by saying your Engineer buddy can't "optimizing the OS for audio playback" so he had to hire someone. Why? - Because it's too difficult. ;-)

Third, you base your new stance (based on reference quality comparisons) on one engineer, who you concur with. Is your friend's Music server competitive? How does it sound? Has he employed a PSU like the SGM (what I would consider reference level and fully customized, not off the shelf PSU)?

Also, you criticize my simple explanation of what a vinyl rig does, care to enlighten me? Based on your amateur statements I'll wager you have minimal industry experience and marginal at best relevant education. Net is - you talk a lot but seem to know not nearly as much and change your position to fit your latest argument. Why don't you enlighten us with your credentials and how a vinyl setup functions?

Finally, Im not sure why you think I take any of our correspondence as personal, purely conversational for me. I do find your opinions as entertaining, I'll say that..

Well, all this seems to be getting very personal attack. I thought on this forum we talk about the gear only?
 

dr k

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Aug 4, 2016
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First, you're changing your statement to meet your argument - First, you stated and I quote, " I would argue a server is not as complex as a vinyl setup, or not even comparable because they are apples and oranges. A vinyl rig requires much more maintenance and time setting up than any music server l’ve ever tried. "

However, your latest statement reads, "designing and manufacturing a reference turn table are much more complex than building a server." and, "If I were to ask you to design and build a reference class TT or a server, which would you find more difficult?"

So now you've moved from a generic Music Server vs. a TT to reference class components, a very different question. You change your question to meet your position. So there's that. And while your at it, define whats reference level means to you.

Second, you infer a Music PC is easier because you can buy off the shelf parts, but then continue by saying your Engineer buddy can't "optimizing the OS for audio playback" so he had to hire someone. Why? - Because it's too difficult. ;-)

Third, you base your new stance (based on reference quality comparisons) on one engineer, who you concur with. Is your friend's Music server competitive? How does it sound? Has he employed a PSU like the SGM (what I would consider reference level and fully customized, not off the shelf PSU)?

Also, you criticize my simple explanation of what a vinyl rig does, care to enlighten me? Based on your amateur statements I'll wager you have minimal industry experience and marginal at best relevant education. Net is - you talk a lot but seem to know not nearly as much and change your position to fit your latest argument. Why don't you enlighten us with your credentials and how a vinyl setup functions?

Finally, Im not sure why you think I take any of our correspondence as personal, purely conversational for me. I do find your opinions as entertaining, I'll say that..

Wow, you have some personal issues to resolve. Attacking me will not serve you well. I didn't realize my answers had to follow your guidelines so your world doesn't fall apart. I apologize for causing you distress.

My point is building a music server is relatively easy to anyone who some computer knowledge. Now I'm not claiming anyone can build an SGM quality reference server. But I do claim building a reference quality TT is more difficult than reference quality server. Do I need to give you or anyone my credentials? No. Nor do I require your credentials. I give people the benefit of the doubt. This is not a peer reviewed science journal, although I have published multiple peer reviewed articles.

To answer your question, my definition of reference (TT or any audio equipment) is an all out engineering assault on building a state of the art piece of gear to extract the best possible sound.

"A TT takes mechanical vibrations and converts to electrical via a cartridge which gets amplified by a phono pre, that's it." You made this so simple. Can you explain to me how? There are many mechanical and electrical engineers who have spent decades and millions of dollars trying to perfect TT design. Perhaps you can enlighten us and these engineers.

"Second, you infer a Music PC is easier because you can buy off the shelf parts, but then continue by saying your Engineer buddy can't "optimizing the OS for audio playback" so he had to hire someone. Why? - Because it's too difficult. ;-) "
Now, now. I did mention the software side was more difficult than putting together the hardware, didn't I? He is not a software engineer. But for the software engineer, it was relatively simple. Seems like you are also guilty of cherry picking and interpreting my answer to suit your needs.

I suppose I can go further and respond to the plethora of questions you have, but I see no fruitful outcome.

Please continue with your personal attacks. You have a knack for belittling people you don't agree with.
 
Last edited:

Koegz

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Oct 29, 2016
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I am using windows 10. Is there a reason to upgrade to windows 16-core 64 bit instead? $500! If so is standard core enough? Now additionally there is windows 19. $129. Will that do the trick? Is it as good or better then all previous?
Does it really even matter?
??
 

Kal Rubinson

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May 4, 2010
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I am using windows 10. Is there a reason to upgrade to windows 16-core 64 bit instead? $500! If so is standard core enough? Now additionally there is windows 19. $129. Will that do the trick? Is it as good or better then all previous?
Does it really even matter?
??
It really only matters if you need the processing bandwidth. What is the resolution of your files? How many channels? Are you applying DSP and how? POS (plain old stereo) is undemanding.
 

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