Avantgarde Trio Luxury VS Tannoy Kingdom Royal

Audiophile Bill

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I listened to the large Bionor horns every day at @ddk 's place over a week long visit and the sound was great regardless of where in the room one sat. No need to be in the one and only central seating position for good sound. I did not get the sense that it was very directional. I don't know if Avantgarde's are different, but I don't think one can generalize about this aspect of listening with all horn designs. Perhaps it was something else in ddk's system that contributed to this sense of envelopment regardless of seating or standing position.

Exactly Peter. When people talk about “horns” it really is unfortunately misleading because they are such a heterogeneous breed. The vintage speakers like Bionor (and WE designs) excelled at filling large places as that was their entire purpose. There are certain types of horns that are designed for wider listening angle such as the multi cells you see ubiquitously on the cinema designs of yesteryear (Altec et al). By the way I am not saying that “horns” can be very directional - they can. My Swings were very much that way which suited me and my room but others would be less enamoured.

Best.
 

KeithR

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I listened to the large Bionor horns every day at @ddk 's place over a week long visit and the sound was great regardless of where in the room one sat. No need to be in the one and only central seating position for good sound. I did not get the sense that it was very directional. I don't know if Avantgarde's are different, but I don't think one can generalize about this aspect of listening with all horn designs. Perhaps it was something else in ddk's system that contributed to this sense of envelopment regardless of seating or standing position.
Because they were designed for theaters.
 

jeff1225

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I listened to the large Bionor horns every day at @ddk 's place over a week long visit and the sound was great regardless of where in the room one sat. No need to be in the one and only central seating position for good sound. I did not get the sense that it was very directional. I don't know if Avantgarde's are different, but I don't think one can generalize about this aspect of listening with all horn designs. Perhaps it was something else in ddk's system that contributed to this sense of envelopment regardless of seating or standing position.
My Avantgardes were VERY directional. You had to sit in the perfect place to really get the full sound. But this is an issue with the smaller spherical horns. Much better dispersion with larger horns with different geometry.
 

PeterA

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Because they were designed for theaters.

Indeed they were, but I’m wondering if there is something else involved also. When I changed my speaker set up basically by eliminating to in, I found I was liberated from the dead center listening seat. The room became more energized and full of sound so I could move around and still enjoy the music.

DDK’s Mitsubishi speakers we’re not designed for theaters but for home use and they had a large listening seat area also. It seems that some speaker types and set up orientations lock you into a center listening seat more than other set ups and speaker types.
 
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BruceD

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Indeed they were, but I’m wondering if there is something else involved also. When I changed my speaker set up basically by eliminating to in, I found I was liberated from the dead center listening seat. The room became more energized and full of sound so I could move around and still enjoy the music.

Yes fair observation you make P ;) -- case in point-I've owned 4 Pairs of Wilson Speakers over the years--2 pairs setup in Situ, one with the late Troy K and secondly by Brad, the others myself following the WASP method-Winds of War /etc/etc.

In every case with this formula the Speakers fire directly at you/Chair-you are the Target . The WASP way is how the units are at their optimum to work according to that setup--fair enough.

However in all the above occasions and Speakers I have owned since I've found moving the Toe out to virtually only a slight variant from straight ahead worked sonically and with a more satisfying experience --

YVMV--proviso above relates to cabinet speakers only.

Indeed re those Vintage behemoths mentioned above !--their younger cousins excelled too!--hence the name "VOTT"--I had friend with two pairs of the original Altec versions he snavelled from a Cinema demolition-- to hear them in his Manse Conservatory stacked they were just mind-blowing! :p

BruceD
 
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Audiophile Bill

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Indeed they were, but I’m wondering if there is something else involved also. When I changed my speaker set up basically by eliminating to in, I found I was liberated from the dead center listening seat. The room became more energized and full of sound so I could move around and still enjoy the music.

DDK’s Mitsubishi speakers we’re not designed for theaters but for home use and they had a large listening seat area also. It seems that some speaker types and set up orientations lock you into a center listening seat more than other set ups and speaker types.

Hi Peter,

Forgive me if you know this already. Modern software allows us to simulate wave dispersion and propagation through most horn designs. Hornresp is very helpful for these simulations and indeed very important to factor into designs. So when you say “something else involved” - the horn mathematical flare profile and loading substantially affects this. Have a read on the web of constant directivity designs too.
 

christoph

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My Avantgardes were VERY directional. You had to sit in the perfect place to really get the full sound. But this is an issue with the smaller spherical horns. Much better dispersion with larger horns with different geometry.
My Universums ARE directional in that they generate little floor/ceiling or side wall reflections BUT even when I sit way off axis, I still don't hear only the closer speaker but it sounds as if I listen to the stage from the side. The image doesn't collapse.

This phenomenon has probably to do with the horn geometry.
The horns in my Universum are Le Cléac'h geometry
 

jeff1225

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My Universums ARE directional in that they generate little floor/ceiling or side wall reflections BUT even when I sit way off axis, I still don't hear only the closer speaker but it sounds as if I listen to the stage from the side. The image doesn't collapse.

This phenomenon has probably to do with the horn geometry.
The horns in my Universum are Le Cléac'h geometry
Yes from what I've read Le Cleac'h has better dispersion of sound and less "head in the vice" tendencies of the Avantgarde horn geometry. My current horns (wave guide) have phenomenal dispersion.
 
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morricab

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The new Odeon Carnegie could be another really good choice.


Heard the one size smaller Semper recently at the Odeon factory and was VERY impressed. Extremely dynamic and alive sounding (with New Audio Frontiers 845 amplifier and an old Wadia DAC) with super punchy bass and ultra revealing (but smooth) mids and highs. Very SET friendly speaker.

Of course another one in the around 100K arena that you should consider is the Aries Cerat Symphonia. It basically has it all except for really deep bass...from 30 or so hz and up it is one of the very best...and of course very SET friendly...

 

Uwiik

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My favorite dealer will have Goebel Divin Marquis on demo by May. I doubt my Kondo will have enough juice to drive it at 92db 4ohm but my dealer insisted for me to wait and give it a try first. Oh my oh my, the more undecided I am....fortunately I am very very patient as I have completed system upstairs already.
 

morricab

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My favorite dealer will have Goebel Divin Marquis on demo by May. I doubt my Kondo will have enough juice to drive it at 92db 4ohm but my dealer insisted for me to wait and give it a try first. Oh my oh my, the more undecided I am....fortunately I am very very patient as I have completed system upstairs already.
Might work...I was able to get my 91db Dynamikks Athos 10s to sing with a 25 watt SET.
 

Folsom

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I listened to the large Bionor horns every day at @ddk 's place over a week long visit and the sound was great regardless of where in the room one sat. No need to be in the one and only central seating position for good sound. I did not get the sense that it was very directional. I don't know if Avantgarde's are different, but I don't think one can generalize about this aspect of listening with all horn designs. Perhaps it was something else in ddk's system that contributed to this sense of envelopment regardless of seating or standing position.

There seems to be a little bit of confusion on what directional means, implications of horns, and what makes a wide sweetspot.

First a horn is extremely directional by default or it's not a horn and is just a silly shape attached to something. The confusion here seems to be some wrong impression that this means beaming. That isn't the case at all. Beaming has nothing to do with being directional.

A directional sound "fills space" better because it doesn't reflect nearly as much; and when meeting one condition. That condition is that it has to have an even power response. Basically think polar graph that is even. If it's uneven that means you'll sit in different places and they'll be dead zones & peaks, as in not a sweet good sounding spot. Lots of reflections can cause the same problem as a bad power response. Thus horns with a good power response have the more even coverage so that you can sit all over for a good experience.

Horns originally were made for acoustic gain since they didn't lose anything to non-listening directions. And for large areas gain was very important when only smaller tube amps or even larger ones not running really hot were what you could use.

Beaming on the other hand... That's what you get from say Magnapans, where they may have a very even frequency response only within that beam. It can sound bad or normal, but is always narrow. It occurs when the frequency is smaller than what is producing it. So 20khz almost exclusively beams for example because it's so small, where as to get 20hz to beam you would need a 55ft driver.
 
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Uwiik

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Might work...I was able to get my 91db Dynamikks Athos 10s to sing with a 25 watt SET.
You think there’s a possibility? I am sure it will work but the big question is whether I can maximize both amp and speakers? As both will be very expensive propositions beyond $200K and potentially costing upwards of $400K when all said and done with the rest of the gears, naturally I do not want anything that is not performing optimally/being forced to perform. My loaner Canterbury SE is also working well, I even mentioned it somewhere here that I just stopped criticizing my system upon hearing the “music” coming out of the loaner Canterbury SE paired with my Kondo Ongaku and Kondo G70. I do however is a rather calculating person and me think that I am wasting my investment on the Kondo if I force myself to accept the not optimally driven Canterbury SE (ie. absolutely no low bass at all in my case).
On the Goebel Divin Marquis case, I will be very much inclined to buy that one if it can be driven optimally with my Kondo Ongaku due to the sole fact that my most helpful, most friendly dealer is carrying the brand and they will soon actually have both Marquis and Noblesse for audition. I am still nagging this very question because May 2021 just could not come fast enough.... LOL!!
 

howiebrou

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You think there’s a possibility? I am sure it will work but the big question is whether I can maximize both amp and speakers? As both will be very expensive propositions beyond $200K and potentially costing upwards of $400K when all said and done with the rest of the gears, naturally I do not want anything that is not performing optimally/being forced to perform. My loaner Canterbury SE is also working well, I even mentioned it somewhere here that I just stopped criticizing my system upon hearing the “music” coming out of the loaner Canterbury SE paired with my Kondo Ongaku and Kondo G70. I do however is a rather calculating person and me think that I am wasting my investment on the Kondo if I force myself to accept the not optimally driven Canterbury SE (ie. absolutely no low bass at all in my case).
On the Goebel Divin Marquis case, I will be very much inclined to buy that one if it can be driven optimally with my Kondo Ongaku due to the sole fact that my most helpful, most friendly dealer is carrying the brand and they will soon actually have both Marquis and Noblesse for audition. I am still nagging this very question because May 2021 just could not come fast enough.... LOL!!
Just to complicate matters, I found my Kondo Kaguras which are 50watts were not optimal driving the Divin Noblesse which are 95db so I think your Ongaku might struggle with the Divin Marquis. Of course it depends on your music taste and how many dB you listen at. The only real way to tell is to try it and see if you like it.
 

Uwiik

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Just to complicate matters, I found my Kondo Kaguras which are 50watts were not optimal driving the Divin Noblesse which are 95db so I think your Ongaku might struggle with the Divin Marquis. Of course it depends on your music taste and how many dB you listen at. The only real way to tell is to try it and see if you like it.
Oh my oh my.... LOL!! Are you happy knowing your Noblesse is not driven optimally? This the Marquis is the only one I can audition freely comes May 2021. Thanks for the response, shall we continue this discussion on the new thread I just started? This thread has diverted too far from the title and I do not want to create a mess for fellow members who might be in the same position as me. Thanks!!
 

morricab

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Just to complicate matters, I found my Kondo Kaguras which are 50watts were not optimal driving the Divin Noblesse which are 95db so I think your Ongaku might struggle with the Divin Marquis. Of course it depends on your music taste and how many dB you listen at. The only real way to tell is to try it and see if you like it.
What was suboptimal and how have you rectified this situation?
 

howiebrou

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What was suboptimal and how have you rectified this situation?
It felt a little underpowered. The sound did not have as much life in it as I would l have liked. Apparently the newer Kaguras might be better in this regard. The Robert Koda K70mk2 which is only 70watts and a hybrid amp breathed life back into the speakers somewhat. I had the Kaguras for around 5 years and they are great amps but you need the right pairing, as with everything.
 
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morricab

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It felt a little underpowered. The sound did not have as much life in it as I would l have liked. Apparently the newer Kaguras might be better in this regard. The Robert Koda K70mk2 which is only 70watts and a hybrid amp breathed life back into the speakers somewhat. I had the Kaguras for around 5 years and they are great amps but you need the right pairing, as with everything.
Ok, so it was more the amps themselves and not the power per se because as you noted, the Robert Kodas were not much more powerful. I heard the Divin Nobelese sound very nice with the Engstrom and Engstrom amps, which are not more powerful I think.
 
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howiebrou

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Ok, so it was more the amps themselves and not the power per se because as you noted, the Robert Kodas were not much more powerful. I heard the Divin Nobelese sound very nice with the Engstrom and Engstrom amps, which are not more powerful I think.
Hard to say I think. I did use the Engstrom Eric's too which are 70w, same as the Kodas and they were much more powerful sounding than the Kaguras but the tone of the Kodas was warmer than the Engstrom and so I went for the Kodas.
 
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