Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

[Ron Resnick]

I am surprised how divergent the power cord crowd is. Even with premium systems, some people say they have a epiphany when they insert a bunch of very very very expensive cables.

I attribute this generally* to audiophile hobbyist enthusiasm causing grossly hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement.

*There are exceptions to every generality. I joined Gary Leeds for a cable demonstration with a prospective mutual client at the prospective client's apartment. The client had a system in which every component had become vintage merely with the passage of decades (early Dunlavy loudspeakers, Audible Illusions preamp, circa 1980s VTL amps).

The audiophile was using old, very thin, flat ribbon-style speaker cables. Gary put in Masterbuilt Ultra speaker cables, and I was shocked at the wholesale improvement in sound. An entire lower octave somehow was added.

If I weren't there and somebody just told me this story I would have attributed the story to "hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement."

 

[Kingrex]

Its all about Voltage drop across the power cord (or wall wiring). Some products, especially large tube amps, are sensitive to the line Voltage since they get a double whammy when it goes down: the B+ drops but perhaps more importantly the filaments cool off, lowering transconductance. To you get reduced power, increased distortion and increased output impedance.

Its both measurable and audible. I've seen power cords rob an amp of over 25% of its full power.

Large solid state amps, particularly those with class A or 'enriched' (a marketing term) AB operation are also line sensitive, although less so than tube amps and by quite a lot, since they usually employ feedback, which allows the amp, to a certain degree, to reject that which is not the signal.

The Voltage drop can also manifest as current limiting at high frequencies, since in most cases, there is a power transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors in the power supplies of the amp. Since the rectifiers only conduct when the filter cap Voltage is less than that of the power transformer feeding the rectifier, and since the caps retain most of their charge between iterations of the line frequency, current only flows at the peaks of the AC waveform. Sometimes this might be for a fraction of a millisecond. If the cord lacks bandwidth, the current pulse will be curtailed.

An excellent power cord can be constructed (here in the US) using good quality IEC connectors, AC plugs and electric stove or drier power cord, the latter of which can be had at Menard's, Lowe's or whatever passes for that in the neighborhood; low Voltage drop and good high frequency characteristics.

How much voltage drop are you talking about. Many utility that I run across show over 120/240 volts. The duplex with #10 or even #12 wire and a 30 foot run, the voltage may still be 121 to 122. Some might be 118. But lets say, at the duplex, its dead on 120 volts. Is it really the 14 awg or 12 awg power cord. Or is it the distorted sine wave from harmonics that seem to usually chop the leading edge off the wave.
And to that point and all the single cable power feed people, the parasitic highly distorted wave form tops that power amps seem to impose on the branch they are connected too.

Whats worse. A couple volts, or a distorted wave form.

 

[Kingrex]

Rhat

I attribute this generally* to audiophile hobbyist enthusiasm causing grossly hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement.

*There are exceptions to every generality. I joined Gary Leeds for a cable demonstration with a prospective mutual client at the prospective client's apartment. The client had a system in which every component had become vintage merely with the passage of decades (early Dunlavy loudspeakers, Audible Illusions preamp, circa 1980s VTL amps).

He was using old, very thin, flat ribbon-style speaker cables. Gary put in Masterbuilt Ultra speaker cables, and I was shocked at the wholesale improvement in sound. An entire lower octave somehow was added.

That could also be dirty contacts. As well as oxidation of the whole cable over time. Everything has an optimum life span. Your cables are breaking down. Just like tubes. That $100,000 loom of cables may perform like Ching Chen after 10 years.

 

[Atmasphere]

An entire lower octave somehow was added.

I had a similar experience at the 1991 CES at the Tropicana in Las Vegas. That was the show that George Cardas had a set of modified Magnaplar MG-3s; the mod was heavy duty non-resonant frames. He wanted to hear our amps after hours and during that session mused about trying his power cords. When they were substituted in, the speakers gained impact and clarity in the bass rather than being a bit ploddy. I bought the cords on the spot.

How much voltage drop are you talking about.

In the case of the amp losing 25% of output power, about 2 Volts from the AC line to the IEC connections inside the amp.

Or is it the distorted sine wave from harmonics that seem to usually chop the leading edge off the wave.
And to that point and all the single cable power feed people, the parasitic highly distorted wave form tops that power amps seem to impose on the branch they are connected too.

Whats worse. A couple volts, or a distorted wave form.

Line harmonics are something quite different and are not affected by the power cord or house wiring in the slightest.

They are caused by line transformers, like that big cylinder atop of power poles you see so often. When the line transformer is running past about 50% of its rated duty, harmonics of the AC line occur and the distortion thus generated is a ratio of the current draw so is a direct relationship.

The 5th harmonic is the one that causes most of the troubles. They can make power transformers and diodes to be noisy and run hotter, also creates a backwards force in synchronous motors (found in turntables and tape machines) while also making them run hotter. In the case of power supplies the additional noise often means the resulting DC will have noise in it, which can intermodulate with the audio signal due to non-linearities in the signal chain.

Most so-called 'conditioners' can't filter the 5th harmonic out. In most cases you need active circuitry to do that and most 'conditioners' offered to high end audio are passive devices. The PS Audio regenerators can get rid of it, inverters powered by batteries can (but introduce noise of their own) and actual real AC line conditioners (like the ancient Elgar 3000, 6000 or 7000 series) can.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I attribute this generally* to audiophile hobbyist enthusiasm causing grossly hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement.

*There are exceptions to every generality. I joined Gary Leeds for a cable demonstration with a prospective mutual client at the prospective client's apartment. The client had a system in which every component had become vintage merely with the passage of decades (early Dunlavy loudspeakers, Audible Illusions preamp, circa 1980s VTL amps).

The audiophile was using old, very thin, flat ribbon-style speaker cables. Gary put in Masterbuilt Ultra speaker cables, and I was shocked at the wholesale improvement in sound. An entire lower octave somehow was added.

If I weren't there and somebody just told me this story I would have attributed the story to "hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement."

Tube amplifiers with foil cables are usually not a good combination. They can act as high-frequency filters (Zobel network).
For amplifiers that have high-frequency problems (oscillation tendency), you can apply a inductor cable (transparent audio or Mit cable. Otherwise, bandwidth will be limited.

 

[DaveC]

The NEC is straitforward on derating current carrying capacity as you run wires together. 4 to 6 is 80%. I don't like that crosstalk, so I space them out.
I don't worry about length. Imagine what an antenna for emf a coil of wire becomes. I go for short and straight. I would try to avoid a drop to an amp of 5 feet and a drop to the other amp of 30 feet. But I would not worry about 15 eet to one and 25 to the other.

If you space runs out, then you're creating loop area. Not good.

---------------

People like Ching Cheng and similar cords because of the resistance in the spot-welded connectors. Simple as that. They don't like "audiophile" cables because they (in general) don't act like a filter as much.

Try using a cheap Ching Cheng-like cord in line with a high power draw appliance like toaster oven and see what happens.

 

[Kingrex]

In the case of the amp losing 25% of output power, about 2 Volts from the AC line to the IEC connections inside the amp.

With that thinking in mind, what happens if the power is over by two volts. Say 122 volts at the IEC to component connection.

 

[Kingrex]

Tube amplifiers with foil cables are usually not a good combination. They can act as high-frequency filters (Zobel network).
For amplifiers that have high-frequency problems (oscillation tendency), you can apply a inductor cable (transparent audio or Mit cable. Otherwise, bandwidth will be limited.

Ribbon cables seem to be magic or the work of the devil.

 

[microstrip]

Its all about Voltage drop across the power cord (or wall wiring). Some products, especially large tube amps, are sensitive to the line Voltage since they get a double whammy when it goes down: the B+ drops but perhaps more importantly the filaments cool off, lowering transconductance. To you get reduced power, increased distortion and increased output impedance.

Its both measurable and audible. I've seen power cords rob an amp of over 25% of its full power. (...)

It would be all all about Voltage drop in an ideal world with perfect amplifiers ...

Please note I am not particularly addressing your amplifiers in my next comment.

Excluding voltage drop, that was never the case if my systems, IMO for most cases the critical aspect in power cables is RF noise, generated by the equipment being powered , noise generated by other pieces of gear, noise coming from the mains and noise being picked by the system. Unfortunately the bandwidth of this noise is very large and we do not have the minimal idea how each sub band affects systems. Unless the discussion is quantified stated with microvolts and hertz we have better relying on "magic".

 

[Atmasphere]

With that thinking in mind, what happens if the power is over by two volts. Say 122 volts at the IEC to component connection.

That will restore the lost power.

In case you're wondering, when I first noticed this phenomena, it was with an amp on the bench using a variac (Variable AC transformer; mine allows you to boost the line Voltage about 20 Volts). I found I simply had to run the amp to full power, then readjust the variac (since it has its own internal Voltage drop) so the line Voltage was restored at the IEC connection, then run the amp to full power again, then turn up the variac again, repeating this process until I had the amp at full power with 120V at its AC input.

There was a 2 Volt drop between the variac and the amp, which I presume was the power cord

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have 15. They do stack well. . I have crates for my two SRA racks and the M9500s. I too need more space. The Monaco comes in a nice Pelican case.

my speakers came in 14 large wooden crates. 4000+ pounds including the speakers. they would have filled one of my garage spaces by themselves. i did the calculation on cost of crate storage for 10 years and the cost of having fresh crates built and junked the crates in 2012. i'm money ahead. and if i sell the speakers i will just place them in a U-Haul trailer and deliver them myself. i like to drive.

i have smaller crates and boxes in my upstairs storage in my barn, and the attic above too for the lighter boxes. it's filled. the Wadax Pelican cases are especially space hungry.....at least the outer boxes collapse.

 

[microstrip]

I attribute this generally* to audiophile hobbyist enthusiasm causing grossly hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement.

*There are exceptions to every generality. I joined Gary Leeds for a cable demonstration with a prospective mutual client at the prospective client's apartment. The client had a system in which every component had become vintage merely with the passage of decades (early Dunlavy loudspeakers, Audible Illusions preamp, circa 1980s VTL amps).

The audiophile was using old, very thin, flat ribbon-style speaker cables. Gary put in Masterbuilt Ultra speaker cables, and I was shocked at the wholesale improvement in sound. An entire lower octave somehow was added.

If I weren't there and somebody just told me this story I would have attributed the story to "hyperbolic fake quantification of subjective sonic improvement."

Well. Ron, IMO this exception allows all other hyperbolic quantifications you love to be skeptic about. We do not have details enough to comment on your past experience, but some thin flat ribbon style cables of the past had low resistivity - I owned one of the more famous of the 90's the Madrigal Flat copper core, so surely "magic" is probably the only explanation for such sonic behavior. And "magic" is intrinsically hyperbolic.

BTW, maybe we should create an organization to supervise the hyperbole police ...

 

[microstrip]

That could also be dirty contacts. As well as oxidation of the whole cable over time. Everything has an optimum life span. Your cables are breaking down.

Well, manufacturers can easily design cables that degrade fast to oblige you to buy new ones - audiophiles love conspirator theories. If it was not for this hobby, probably they would join UFO forums ...

Just like tubes.

Sorry, this is a fake analogy, unless you add a smile.

That $100,000 loom of cables may perform like Ching Chen after 10 years.

Impossible, unless they would have Ching Cheng core inside and the outer core could evaporate in ten years.

 

[Kingrex]

Well, manufacturers can easily design cables that degrade fast to oblige you to buy new ones - audiophiles love conspirator theories. If it was not for this hobby, probably they would join UFO forums ...



Sorry, this is a fake analogy, unless you add a smile.



Impossible, unless they would have Ching Cheng core inside and the outer core could evaporate in ten years.

My Inakustik cables. The ends of the wire are a soldered end, then a screw tight terminal on the end. That is surely oxidized. I need to open them and clean them.

Years back I removed about 40 year old 10 awg wire from a home I was remodeling. I figured it was good oll USA slow drawn copper. Twisted #10. I put it into my system and it was by far the worst sounding branch wire I ever heard. Closer inspection showed the copper was oxidized all throughout the conductor. Oxygen gets in no matter what. Cables break down. Not as fast as an active tube. But they are degrading. If someone is using a 40 year old wire as an interconnect or speaker cable. Even a power cable, I bet its worthless junk due to oxidation throughout the whole cable.
I don't know the real world life of a cable. I assume Dave knows more. He will probably say the cable insulation, termination, solder, coating on metals etc will all impact longevity.

 

[Kingrex]

FWIW a Ching Cheng is all tined wire with a molded end. That is probably one of the longest lasting cables out there.

 

[PeterA]

Rhat

That could also be dirty contacts. As well as oxidation of the whole cable over time. Everything has an optimum life span. Your cables are breaking down. Just like tubes. That $100,000 loom of cables may perform like Ching Chen after 10 years.

That might actually be an improvement in sonic terms.

 

[DaveC]

A properly designed and manufactured cable will not corrode over time. Corrosion does affect wire at times though, usually in more challenging environments. The most common issue is insulation not adequately sealing the ends of stranded wire, combined with the termination not adequately protecting itself from the environment. I used to own an auto shop and corroded wires in cars and trucks aren't unusual, otoh I've dug into decades old wire harnesses in vehicles and the wires look like new. I've also done a lot of electrical work both residential and commercial and the most common issue is with wire run outdoors or underground. The most common terminations, set-screws and wire clamps, are not usually an issue long term if implemented properly. With rare exceptions, wire will not corrode if you use the proper wire and terminations for the application.

For audio cables, it's pretty common to see "air dielectrics", which will result in corrosion. It's also common to see solid-core wire of excessive gauge, which will lead to cracking. Or ribbons sandwiched together so flexing the cable puts too much stress on the terminations. All of these things can be an advantage in the short term, but personally I want my cables to last a lifetime and that is my goal and a priority in cable design.

Ching Cheng will corrode over time as the electrical contacts are unplated copper alloy of some sort... despite the molded plug ends the electrical contacts are still exposed to the air. You can see this on male plugs easily, but they can be cleaned. Good luck doing a good job cleaning the IEC ends though. Also, if used in high power applications where the spot welds will heat up, this will lead to failure over time. The spot welds will get hot enough to compromise the insulation. If you don't believe this, most any cheap cable of this type will heat up at the spot welds if used to power something like space heater, toaster oven, etc. It's this resistance that acts as basic filter and it's why Ching Cheng or similar cables can result in a subjective preference over a technically superior cable. But what does that say about your AC power distribution, how much noise it carries, or the component it's attached to?

 

[microstrip]

My Inakustik cables. The ends of the wire are a soldered end, then a screw tight terminal on the end. That is surely oxidized. I need to open them and clean them.

Well, a soldered cable with a screw tight terminal? If expertly done - solder just inside the core, no excess solder, screwed just on the copper it is acceptable. Otherwise it is a poor job - the risk of creep/loosening is very high. I would not buy wires made using such technique, YMMV.

Years back I removed about 40 year old 10 awg wire from a home I was remodeling. I figured it was good oll USA slow drawn copper. Twisted #10. I put it into my system and it was by far the worst sounding branch wire I ever heard. Closer inspection showed the copper was oxidized all throughout the conductor. Oxygen gets in no matter what. Cables break down. Not as fast as an active tube. But they are degrading. If someone is using a 40 year old wire as an interconnect or speaker cable. Even a power cable, I bet its worthless junk due to oxidation throughout the whole cable.
I don't know the real world life of a cable. I assume Dave knows more. He will probably say the cable insulation, termination, solder, coating on metals etc will all impact longevity.

Just get some early Monster cables with transparent sleeve - they are clearly oxidized green inside. The quality of the insulating material is also critical - a lot of them outgas chemicals that oxidize the cable metal in the long term. But I have stripped 50 years old Van den Hul cables with Huliflex jackets that shine as if they were made yesterday.

Yes, most anything impacts longevity of cables.

 

[PeterA]

FWIW a Ching Cheng is all tined wire with a molded end. That is probably one of the longest lasting cables out there.

My Ching Cheng from DDK are old. He bought a huge bulk supply because he needed a few for his own system and could not by them in small quantities. Many are now in his clients' systems. They are now mostly gone. I do not know how long ago they were made, but he cut one open and told me it looked brand new. He listened to many versions before buying the bulk supply. They are a particular length and they have the clear molded connector end. They sound different from others and from the new ones people have directly compared them to.

 

[microstrip]

My Ching Cheng from DDK are old. He bought a huge bulk supply because he needed a few for his own system and could not by them in small quantities. Many are now in his clients' systems. They are now mostly gone. I do not know how long ago they were made, but he cut one open and told me it looked brand new. He listened to many versions before buying the bulk supply. They are a particular length and they have the clear molded connector end. They sound different from others and from the new ones people have directly compared them to.

Peter,
Can you confirm if DDK Ching Cheng's are copper or tinned copper wire?