Audiophile power cords vs. the cables in your walls

[Atmasphere]

Absolutely. That Audion SET845 was a noisy mess due to improper grounding. Even lifting the ground with a HumX did not clear it all. It took years of work to fix the circuit. Wasted money as it's quiet, but doesn't sound so great.

I am sick of failing amplifiers

There's a big difference between, i'm happy and like the sound, and something being technically correct. Ralph does post many times explaining to people what is technically correct. Yet as many or more respond back in a way that seems to say they disagree with the electrical engineering...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Bruce B]

What is the cable. I don't recognize the red jacket? Nice lashing.

JPS Labs In-Wall Power Cable

 

[Kingrex]

Unfortunately just like everything else in audio just because theory/ measurements tells you otherwise it doesn’t necessarily make it sound better to each person and in every scenario.
In fact it may sound better one day/hour then the next.
This of course without consideration to regulations.

I disagree. For one, the NEC is pretty good as far as functionally safe and for the most part correct. I go further with using premium parts. And my grounding techniques are based on the NEC, reading all the usual suspects in audio, following Mike Holt (a master in electrical fundimentals) and classes in grounding techniques for telecom, data centers and cell towers. There is a correct way to wire and ground.

What your referring to as noise is not related to grounding. If you have EMF, RF, distorted sine wave, sags or surges, grounding and wire routing as well as fancy panels won't fix it. That is what a filter is for.

Grounding shunts surges to earth. Grounding is necessary for SPD to operate properly.
Bonding of the neutral and ground properly, which is a part of what I do, helps reduce micro volt difference between neutral and ground as measured at the duplex.

I have set a all copper, polished and deoxed NQ panel next to a stock QO with copper phase bar panel. The difference was profound. On an order of inserting a filter that does everything right, and nothing wrong. But that is not a reduction in RF or utility noise. A fancy panel does not magically fix dirty incoming utility power that is very audible and changes what you hear at different times of day.

A big issue for audiophile is understanding what noise you have, why it might be there and how to properly address it.

 

[Hilroy48]

I became a fan of power cords back in late 90's. My first power cord was a Nordost, and I could hear the difference even back then. It wasn't until the last 7 years which I sunk my teeth into the Audiophile world and had to sift between fact and fiction. lol Let your ears be your guide.

The best lesson I learned was, "You don't know what system noise is, until you can't hear it anymore."

I Ran a dedicated 20 amp cct to my main system on a Friday afternoon. I already had All Wireworld power cables, as well as a Saturn Audio Power conditioner. This dedicated CCT was the final addition. I used #12 wire, correct AWG for a 20 amp CCT, as well as a Cardas Audio 4181 plug. The result was outstanding. The other upgrade I performed after was to rewire the Saturn Power conditioner, I removed all the #14 wire, and receptacles. Replaced them with OFC #10 copper wire, and Cardas Receptacles. Money well spent. \

My system is now dead quiet!!!!!! In between a singers breaths, or in between notes etc there is dead quiet. Well there is no noise which I can hear so mission accomplished.

 

[Kingrex]

Running dedicated circuits is always a best first step and never wrong. Its possible you could get a bigger bang for the buck some other way. But really, better branch circuits and better panel layout and materials is always a benefit and never has any downside.

FWIW, there are many ways a #12 is incorrect as a branch on a 20A circuit.
1, You have multiple branch wires in the same raceway and have to derate.
2. You have temperature issues and have to derate.
3. You have distance issues and have to derate.
You can always use a larger gauge wire than the over current protective device rating. As long as the device is rated to handle the wire gauge. Every 20A breaker is designed to accept a 10 AWG wire for a reason. Many times its beneficial to use a larger wire. Or code required to do so. A 12 is probably just fine if your amp is 100 watts or less. Some people really like to use a #6. I know a few doing as such. The issue with #6 is the breaker and receptacle are not rated for it. I'm pretty sure you can stuff a #6 into a 20A CB. While not code compliant, splaying the wires evenly and slipping them under each side of the duplex clamp makes a very solid connection. Splaying them across both screws on the duplex also works.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Running dedicated circuits is always a best first step and never wrong. Its possible you could get a bigger bang for the buck some other way. But really, better branch circuits and better panel layout and materials is always a benefit and never has any downside.

+1

 

[microstrip]

Running dedicated circuits is always a best first step and never wrong. Its possible you could get a bigger bang for the buck some other way. But really, better branch circuits and better panel layout and materials is always a benefit and never has any downside.

FWIW, there are many ways a #12 is incorrect as a branch on a 20A circuit.
1, You have multiple branch wires in the same raceway and have to derate.
2. You have temperature issues and have to derate.
3. You have distance issues and have to derate.
You can always use a larger gauge wire than the over current protective device rating. As long as the device is rated to handle the wire gauge. Every 20A breaker is designed to accept a 10 AWG wire for a reason. Many times its beneficial to use a larger wire. Or code required to do so. A 12 is probably just fine if your amp is 100 watts or less. Some people really like to use a #6. I know a few doing as such. The issue with #6 is the breaker and receptacle are not rated for it. I'm pretty sure you can stuff a #6 into a 20A CB. While not code compliant, splaying the wires evenly and slipping them under each side of the duplex clamp makes a very solid connection. Splaying them across both screws on the duplex also works.

Curious that we often refer to AWG never specifying length. IMO a proper discussion would address the total ohm resistance, not just wire diameter.

 

[Kingrex]

Curious that we often refer to AWG never specifying length. IMO a proper discussion would address the total ohm resistance, not just wire diameter.

We do. Vince from MSB put a page together on it. I have talked about it too. To meet NEC and voltage drop, you have to stay within 5% drop. I usually default to 5 volts which is more like 4%.
Technically a 40 foot run with 4 amps of load can be serviced with a #14 wire. We are way oversizing with audio. Sonically its very apparent a #14 is insufficient to power a audio system. So why get so far into the weeds with ohms and impedance. Its going to tell you to use a small wire. I and many others have listened and a #10 NM-B gives a good blend of dynamics, weight without being slow or muddy. #6, IMO gets very fast. Maybe too much. But some people with high power SS amps like it. They still go back to #10 for the front end gear.

 

[PeterA]

We do. Vince from MSB put a page together on it. I have talked about it too. To meet NEC and voltage drop, you have to stay within 5% drop. I usually default to 5 volts which is more like 4%.
Technically a 40 foot run with 4 amps of load can be serviced with a #14 wire. We are way oversizing with audio. Sonically its very apparent a #14 is insufficient to power a audio system. So why get so far into the weeds with ohms and impedance. Its going to tell you to use a small wire. I and many others have listened and a #10 NM-B gives a good blend of dynamics, weight without being slow or muddy. #6, IMO gets very fast. Maybe too much. But some people with high power SS amps like it. They still go back to #10 for the front end gear.

I use #10 in my four dedicated circuits. I used to use #8 JPS In-Wall wire, red sleeve, and found it very colored sounding after direct comparisons to standard commercial #10. I compared same length, same outlets. I also compared Furutech IEC plugs on both wires to standard commercial grade isolated ground outlets with both audiophile and stock power cords and preferred the outlets with stock power cords to the Furutech IEC plugged directly into the gear. Then I compared stock power cords to various audiophile power cords and actually preferred the stock cords. I have since replaced stock cords with specific old model Ching Cheng cords. All of this stuff is audible. Wires, cords, outlets all seem to make a difference. People should listen to alternatives and choose carefully what works best for them, IMO.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I use #10 in my four dedicated circuits. I used to use #8 JPS In-Wall wire, red sleeve, and found it very colored sounding after direct comparisons to standard commercial #10. I compared same length, same outlets. I also compared Furutech IEC plugs on both wires to standard commercial grade isolated ground outlets with both audiophile and stock power cords and preferred the outlets with stock power cords to the Furutech IEC plugged directly into the gear. Then I compared stock power cords to various audiophile power cords and actually preferred the stock cords. I have since replaced stock cords with specific old model Ching Cheng cords. All of this stuff is audible. Wires, cords, outlets all seem to make a difference. People should listen to alternatives and choose carefully what works best for them, IMO.

my system uses the Equi=tech 10WQ wall panel then #10 Romex all around for each circuit. agree it seems 'right'. but have not compared in wall cables. i do prefer the Furutech NFC outlets and covers, and the Furutech Rhodium NFC plugs too. i have some of the Ching Cheung power cords i acquired when i had the Lamm ML3's. and have compared in and out in various places and my preference is for my Absolute Fidelity (Genesis Loudspeakers) power cords.

every system and personal preference is different. maybe if my system was all tube i would prefer the Ching Cheung and standard commercial grade outlets.

 

[microstrip]

(...) . i have some of the Ching Cheung power cords i acquired when i had the Lamm ML3's. (...)

I also got them later from DDK and found they sounded similar to some other old hospital grade power cables supplied by conrad johnson with their too amplifiers. Curiously Lew Jonson was also extremely skeptical about high-end power cables.

I never risk a recommendation to a power cable - I have found that they are extremely depend of system. Some people look for "magic" in power cables, I find them "witchcraft" I can't understand at all. But yes, they can change a system sound dramatically.

 

[PeterA]

I think everyone should try alternatives and judge by listening. They seem to all sound different. Some enhance the sound, some restrict the sound and emphasize frequencies, wires and cables. It is all about preference, IMO. I sold or gave away, or threw away my Transparent wires and cords and various power boxes. I also threw away my 3 X 15' runs of JPS Labs In Wall cables. I could not find anyone who wanted them. Audio is not an investment. It is an hobby and products are consumer goods. I consider one is luck if he can sell for only a small loss. I have also thrown away footers, cable risers, and the acoustic treatments I could not sell.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think everyone should try alternatives and judge by listening. They seem to all sound different. Some enhance the sound, some restrict the sound and emphasize frequencies, wires and cables. It is all about preference, IMO. I sold or gave away, or threw away my Transparent wires and cords and various power boxes. I also threw away my 3 X 15' runs of JPS Labs In Wall cables. I could not find anyone who wanted them. Audio is not an investment. It is an hobby and products are consumer goods. I consider one is luck if he can sell for only a small loss. I have also thrown away footers, cable risers, and the acoustic treatments I could not sell.

Peter,

seems like you need a barn to hold all your old audio accessories. and i need a smaller place so i don't keep so much crap.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

seems like you need a barn to hold all your old audio accessories. and i need a smaller place so i don't keep so much crap.

Mike, I got rid of all old accessories and unused stuff. I do need a barn or garage for all of my empty Lamm crates and a few extra Lamm components.

 

[microstrip]

Mike, I got rid of all old accessories and unused stuff. I do need a barn or garage for all of my empty Lamm crates and a few extra Lamm components.

You can store a large quantity of gear in the empty Lamm crates! And fortunately the Lamm crates are not deep and can be easily stacked - at a time I had 14 of them ... Do you have more?

 

[Kingrex]

I have some Ching Cheng from DDK. They work.fine. I prefer some cables made by Found Music with a nice gold plated male and female end. They work well with the Furutech NCF Rhodium. The NCF Rhodium is better, in my system than the cryo hubbell 5362.

I too have ditched more expensive power cables.
I do like my Inakustik speaker and interconnects.

 

[PeterA]

You can store a large quantity of gear in the empty Lamm crates! And fortunately the Lamm crates are not deep and can be easily stacked - at a time I had 14 of them ... Do you have more?

yes

 

[tima]

You can store a large quantity of gear in the empty Lamm crates! And fortunately the Lamm crates are not deep and can be easily stacked - at a time I had 14 of them ... Do you have more?

I have 15. They do stack well. . I have crates for my two SRA racks and the M9500s. I too need more space. The Monaco comes in a nice Pelican case.

 

[Kingrex]

I am surprised how divergent the power cord crowd is. Even with premium systems, some people say they have a epiphany when they insert a bunch of very very very expensive cables. Does not matter if they are using tube or SS. Others say they find a basic cord works better. I understand basic fundamentals such as proper geometry is important. Material is important. The plating materials and the associated connection point plate materials is also important. Then there are the manufacturer that say they utilize "filters" in the cable to mitigate RF or other noise. Again, I can see a benefit.
I can see a well done cable with the right plating costing $1000 for a power cord working excellent. The addition of filters in the cable is the most interesting. If a cable could in fact damp RF and drain any parasitic voltage that accumulated from it, that would be important. Of course, the chassis of the equipment its plugging into may introduce it all back again. But could the attached cable help to reduce and drain it out. All interesting questions related to, do some cables actually perform better than others.

I just ruined this thread, didn't I !!!!!!!!

 

[Atmasphere]

I never risk a recommendation to a power cable - I have found that they are extremely depend of system. Some people look for "magic" in power cables, I find them "witchcraft" I can't understand at all.

Its all about Voltage drop across the power cord (or wall wiring). Some products, especially large tube amps, are sensitive to the line Voltage since they get a double whammy when it goes down: the B+ drops but perhaps more importantly the filaments cool off, lowering transconductance. To you get reduced power, increased distortion and increased output impedance.

Its both measurable and audible. I've seen power cords rob an amp of over 25% of its full power.

Large solid state amps, particularly those with class A or 'enriched' (a marketing term) AB operation are also line sensitive, although less so than tube amps and by quite a lot, since they usually employ feedback, which allows the amp, to a certain degree, to reject that which is not the signal.

The Voltage drop can also manifest as current limiting at high frequencies, since in most cases, there is a power transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors in the power supplies of the amp. Since the rectifiers only conduct when the filter cap Voltage is less than that of the power transformer feeding the rectifier, and since the caps retain most of their charge between iterations of the line frequency, current only flows at the peaks of the AC waveform. Sometimes this might be for a fraction of a millisecond. If the cord lacks bandwidth, the current pulse will be curtailed.

An excellent power cord can be constructed (here in the US) using good quality IEC connectors, AC plugs and electric stove or drier power cord, the latter of which can be had at Menard's, Lowe's or whatever passes for that in the neighborhood; low Voltage drop and good high frequency characteristics.