Audio Soundcards

[Orb]

Thanks. Can I aks you also for a USB - SPDIF converter? Do you think that a USB unit can have the same quality of a PCI card?

Heya Microstrip,
well if your limited to 96khz, one that seems to come out well in reviews is the Halide Design Bridge product: http://www.halidedesign.com/bridge/
I like how it also can have a BNC connector (RCA is still an option), which after XLR is my preferred path if the input device can take this.
For a take on its measurements two links, one aspect I am interested in is its isolation design.
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Linux/Sound3/TimeForChange.html (subtly different take on testing it)
http://www.stereophile.com/content/halide-design-spdif-bridge-usb-spdif-converter-measurements

Caveat is that I have not evaluated any USB products myself, although this would be one on my list to check out.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks. Can I aks you also for a USB - SPDIF converter? Do you think that a USB unit can have the same quality of a PCI card?

There's always the one from BADA that came out... $1695?? I'm not really into converters. I feel any converter degrades the signal. I've heard good things about HRT though.

 

[garylkoh]

I've had good results from the M2Tech Evo (but not the original M2Tech), and the Weiss INT202. I can't tell if the converter degrades the signal as both the Toslink and the S/PDIF on the computer motherboard are quite bad, and there's no space on my server to install a soundcard.

 

[Orb]

If you look at the 1st link I provided, it suggests that it is possible it provides a cleaner signal (downstream) instead of degradation, when converting USB anyway.
I appreciate though the testing may not answer everything on that subject.

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

I am getting superlative results from USB to S/PDIF bridge. The performance improvement is hard to imagine but it is there almost no matter what device I drive with them. I can't recommend them highly enough. My prediction is that they will soon obsolete all sound cards as the ultimate and easiest way to attach an PC to an audio system.

 

[mep]

I am getting superlative results from USB to S/PDIF bridge. The performance improvement is hard to imagine but it is there almost no matter what device I drive with them. I can't recommend them highly enough. My prediction is that they will soon obsolete all sound cards as the ultimate and easiest way to attach an PC to an audio system.

Which one is your fav Amir?

 

[amirm]

Which one is your fav Amir?

I have only tested one . It is the Audiphilleo: http://www.audiophilleo.com/

We have the Berkeley on order so I should have something to say about that in about a month (long lead time).

I have used the above with ML Processor, ML Dac, Berkeley DAC and PeachTree Nova. It provided marked improvement. It surprised me with the degree of improvement. The unit can also be used without a cable which is nice as it removes reflections as a source of jitter and of course, saves the cost of that. There are two versions: $500 and $900. Both have the same performance but the $900 unit has cool toys like jitter simulator.

Note: while having no intention originally than meeting Philip, the designer, I was so impressed with the performance of the unit that we have become a dealer for it. We don't make much money from it but thought it is important to have it in our line up to complete our PC based scenarios. So take my comments above in this context .

 

[amirm]

Let me add that I have tested other USB solutions and they don't sound all that great. It is this new class of async USB with good attention to clocking which provides the nice performance boost.

 

[Vincent Kars]

I feel any converter degrades the signal

One has to convert anyway.
From PCI to SPDIF (sound card)
From USB to SPDIF or I2S (USB DAC)

Ths one http://www.stereophile.com/content/halide-design-spdif-bridge-usb-spdif-converter-measurements shows some difference between an old (2000) sound card and async USB

 

[Steve Williams]

I have only tested one . It is the Audiphilleo: http://www.audiophilleo.com/

We have the Berkeley on order so I should have something to say about that in about a month (long lead time).

I have used the above with ML Processor, ML Dac, Berkeley DAC and PeachTree Nova. It provided marked improvement. It surprised me with the degree of improvement. The unit can also be used without a cable which is nice as it removes reflections as a source of jitter and of course, saves the cost of that. There are two versions: $500 and $900. Both have the same performance but the $900 unit has cool toys like jitter simulator.

Note: while having no intention originally than meeting Philip, the designer, I was so impressed with the performance of the unit that we have become a dealer for it. We don't make much money from it but thought it is important to have it in our line up to complete our PC based scenarios. So take my comments above in this context .

can you explain to me what the bridge does. Is it tantamount to the same idea that Playback Designs uses in their soon to be released USB-x even though it goes USB-->VGA

 

[amirm]

can you explain to me what the bridge does. Is it tantamount to the same idea that Playback Designs uses in their soon to be released USB-x even though it goes USB-->VGA

A "bridge" is a technical term for anything that goes from one domain to another. In this case, we are going from USB bus to S/PDIF bus.

The actual explanation is simpler. The USB device looks like a "sound card" to the PC. It just happens to sit outside of the computer. A sound card does the same thing but sits inside as Vincent just explained.

In theory, advantage of an external solution is that it sits away from the noisy PC environment.

The Playback design is the same thing except that instead of using S/PDIF on the output of the bridge, they use a proprietary connection and protocol that exists on that DAC. BTW, there is no "VGA" there. That connector happens to be the one used for VGA video connections but in their use, it is just a connector. It is used there because it is produced in very high volume and it is therefore quite cheap.

I am not a fan of USB-X because it only works with their DAC. If you get a good async USB to S/PDIF converter, it will work any DAC of your choosing, including the ones you have now and in the future. It is great to walk around with the standard USB adapter and plug into anything and get great sound.

 

[microstrip]

I have only tested one . It is the Audiphilleo: http://www.audiophilleo.com/
(...) .

Amir,
One more detail - how long can be the cable between the cheapest Audiophileo (the Audiophileo2) and the DAC? Do you have a preferred digital cable?

 

[amirm]

You can run the Audiophilleo without a cable. It has very fast rise time (700ps) designed specifically to avoid reflections given the 4 inch length in that situation.

Here is the verbiage from Phil's site:

"Direct connection

Perhaps surprisingly, leading cable designers will tell you: “The best cable is no cable.”. We went to great lengths, as it were, to make sure that the Audiophilleos could be connected directly to most DACs without using an S/PDIF cable. Because the Audiophilleo case is just 3" x 2" x 0.75" (76 mm x 51 mm x 19 mm), its compact size along with an off-center BNC connector, it's easy install it on almost any DAC with the provided adapters. And the display on the Audiophilleo1 may even be “flipped” top to bottom so one can read it whether the device is on the front or rear panel of your DAC.

The Audiophilleo is designed to produce the lowest jitter, and sound best, without the use of a cable. If you already have quality S/PDIF cables, try them out, but the sound may be even better using direct connection. Here’s why:

With an ordinary USB-S/PDIF interface, the sound may improve with a longer, or simply a different, cable, because of improved impedance matching and reflection suppression. Remember that “digital” signals are just oddly-shaped analogue waveforms; like water waves in a pool, they can reflect off the sides and create complicated interference patterns. See Why longer is generally better for an S/PDIF Digital Cable for more.

And, as a general rule, any device driving a short cable must have very fast rise-times or “edges” to avoid jitter created by interfering internal electrical reflections. The relatively slow, 25 ns transitions typical of many USB-S/PDIF devices are more compatible with longer cables, which in turn reduces these reflections and their contribution to clock jitter.

A direct connection is basically a very short cable! The total S/PDIF signal path to the DAC is only 4 inches (100 mm). Thus, the Audiophilleo must have, and has, very fast edge transitions—just 700ps— which eliminates reflection-related jitter even in such a short “cable”.

Electrical signals take about 120 ps to “travel” an inch (25 mm), and in this case, the round-trip for a reflection would be about 960 ps (4 inches x 120 ps, x two “trips”, down and back). Because the edge transition for the Audiophilleo is over in 700ps, the DAC “sees” the first reflection a relatively long time after the time it has evaluated the value of a bit; the reflection can’t contribute to jitter because the DAC has already captured the incoming data correctly.

Audiophilleo1 incorporates an advanced VirtualCable feature, available from the OLED display, that “fine tunes” edge transitions for maximum compatibility with legacy DACs. Even without using a physical S/PDIF cable, one may nonetheless experiment with the phenomena caused by different cable lengths. To find out more about cables and jitter, check out the Articles page."

 

[Vincent Kars]

The Playback design is the same thing except that instead of using S/PDIF on the output of the bridge, they use a proprietary connection and protocol that exists on that DAC.

USB to I2S?

 

[Jinjuku]

Any one have time on the E-MU 0404 PCIe? It fits my personal budget and has AES/EBU out. What (used is also fine) DAC's are out there for under 4/500 that will do a good job?

Also what is the prevailing thought of the computers PSU making noise over the AES/EBU vs a computers TOSLink out to an external DAC.

 

[amirm]

Also what is the prevailing thought of the computers PSU making noise over the AES/EBU vs a computers TOSLink out to an external DAC.

I ran this test long time ago. My memory is hazing of all the details but remember using AES/EBU over Toslink.

 

[amirm]

USB to I2S?

I don't know. Is that what lives over that VGA connector?

 

[Steve Williams]

A "bridge" is a technical term for anything that goes from one domain to another. In this case, we are going from USB bus to S/PDIF bus.

The actual explanation is simpler. The USB device looks like a "sound card" to the PC. It just happens to sit outside of the computer. A sound card does the same thing but sits inside as Vincent just explained.

In theory, advantage of an external solution is that it sits away from the noisy PC environment.

The Playback design is the same thing except that instead of using S/PDIF on the output of the bridge, they use a proprietary connection and protocol that exists on that DAC. BTW, there is no "VGA" there. That connector happens to be the one used for VGA video connections but in their use, it is just a connector. It is used there because it is produced in very high volume and it is therefore quite cheap.

I am not a fan of USB-X because it only works with their DAC. If you get a good async USB to S/PDIF converter, it will work any DAC of your choosing, including the ones you have now and in the future. It is great to walk around with the standard USB adapter and plug into anything and get great sound.

I agree but for those of us who use Playback Designs it is an optimum fix

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

After much research here, there and everywhere, I've decided on the Asus Xonar Essence STX audio PC card. Now it's time to decide between the M-Audio Studiophile CX5 or KRK Rokit 6 active monitors. I am using MediaMonkey Gold, but may give J-River Media a kick at the cat! This is my first foray into the audiophile digital domain, and I'm rather excited about it all.

 

[zydeco]

8-channel sound card / dac

Bruce

I'm a music enthusiast embarking on my first DIY speaker project and am after some advice on use of a pro-audio DAC. My design involves a 4-way active speaker with the crossover executed in the digital domain using a convolution plug-in to J River Media Player.

All this means that I'm after an 8-channel DAC to work with a Windows 7 64-bit computer. The main requirement is for a device which is stable and once setup allows the entire setup to be controlled from JRMC. Sound quality is important.

My reading of this thread, Bruce, is that you seem to prefer PCI cards for output rather than FireWire or USB. What about D/A conversion on the actual PCI card (eg Lynx L2) versus digital output to off-board DAC (eg, Lynx AES to Aurora 8)?

Regards zydeco