Audio Soundcards

@audiofilodigital

I am not married to the Lynx idea, any other cards that are deemed of equivalent or similar performance/quality and less expensive are welcomed. AS I understand it the Weill has 16 channels and in a 2-Ch situation, 14 channels, and their associated electronics/components are wasted you pay for all these channels and are not using them . I would have preferred a less wasteful alternative.

Hi Frantz,

Ok, I see that what you want... is also what I want :). Unfortunately most of professional DACs (not all) have the ability of being AD/DA and, most of them have been designed to "deal" with many channels. I agree with you that it is a pity (i.e. waste-of-money) to get a 14 or even only 6 DAC analog outputs for our needs: just 2 analog channels...
Regarding the Sound-cards with Word Clock i/o, and while Bruce answer us, there are some of others, apart from Lynx:
RME (which mentioned those MADI connections),
M-Audio (already mentioned by Gary )

But I think that most of them seem to be designed to work together with their own AD/DA external converters (regarding the world-clock in/out).
Surely Bruce can put some light here to guide us through the proper models... :)
 
Hi

WHile waiting for the adults to chime in :) ... THe Lynx is very flexible from what I read in its manual .. It can easily provide the clock or be provided a clock. As amtter of fact it seems it can take the clock from the AES/EBU Interface. ... I mistakenly spoke about the Weiss in my last post.. I meant the Lynx.
RME products, at least those I could see on their website have even more channels and the prices are very close to the Lynx.
 
The MADI (Multichannel Audio Digital Interface) protocol can carry every PCM AND DSD sample rate known. There are 2 MADI interface protocols, either 75 ohm coax or SC/ST optical. It can carry up to 128 channels of 24/44.1 or 16 channels of DSD/DXD over one cable. You can run a coax cable up to 100 meters and optical up to a 1000 or so.
The MADI converters that I know of are the RME, Lynx Aurora, DAD AX24, Euphonix and some I'm forgetting now.
One thing I might add is that the DAD AX24 converter is modular. If you just want a 2-channel DAC, that's all you pay for.
 
This could be an interesting RME DAC ...and just for stereo:
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_adi_2.php

...'though I can´t see how to implement the Clock I/O to it, it looks as it had a good jitter reduction
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_support_techinfo.php?page=content/support/en_support_techinfo_steadyclock

..and the price still remains under 500€...

audiofilodigital, I wonder if you are clear on your requirements. Do you already have a DAC that you intend to use? if so, what kind of digital input interfaces does it have?

You cited the RME ADI-2. Note that it does not provide the computer end of the solution. You still need something to output a digital spdif or AES/EBU stream.

The page you linked to gives this description of the ADI-2 connectivity.

1 x Stereo Analog I/O
1 x ADAT or SPDIF I/O (optical and coaxial, AES/EBU compatible)

There are other RME products that provide the computer end of the solution. The Babyface product provides a USB interface to a PC or Mac and outputs balanced analog or an unbalanced headphone output.

You and Frantz have commented on the number of channels listed for some pro-audio devices. Keep in mind that manufacturers are giving the total number of interfaces: analog, digital and MIDI, input and output. For example, RME describes the Babyface as a 22 channel device.

The focus on getting a word clock input from a separate DAC to the computer seems a bit premature to me. That is not relevant when the computer output interface and the actual DAC function are tightly coupled. (For example, neither PCI soundcards nor USB DACs nor Firewire DACs need a word clock input if they are doing the D to A conversion.)

Bill
 
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audiofilodigital, I wonder if you are clear on your requirements. Do you already have a DAC that you intend to use? if so, what kind of digital input interfaces does it have?

You cited the RME ADI-2. Note that it does not provide the computer end of the solution. You still need something to output

The page you linked to gives this description of the ADI-2 connectivity.

1 x Stereo Analog I/O
1 x ADAT or SPDIF I/O (optical and coaxial, AES/EBU compatible)

There are other RME products that provide the computer end of the solution. The Babyface product provides a USB interface to a PC or Mac and outputs balanced analog or an unbalanced headphone output.

You and Frantz have commented on the number of channels listed for some pro-audio devices. Keep in mind that manufacturers are giving the total number of interfaces: analog, digital and MIDI, input and output. For example, RME describes the Babyface as a 22 channel device.

The focus on getting a word clock input from a separate DAC to the computer seems a bit premature to me. That is not relevant when the computer output interface and the actual DAC function are tightly coupled. (For example, neither PCI soundcards or USB DACs or Firewire DACs need a word clock input if they are doing the D to A conversion.)

Bill

Hi Bill,

Well, yes, I hope to be clear :)... at least I try...
Most of my previous suggestions were intended for Frantz and his own requirements (while Bruce could answer us -both-).
I have also both kind of products:
a) PCIe cards with DAC included (M-Audio Delta 1010LT & Asus Xonar Essence ST)
b) I recently purchased a TC Electronic BMC-2, which is a kind of DAC + volume control for monitoring purposes (to be connected to a power amp XLR inputs or a pair of active speakers).
...as, in the M-Audio Delta card, I could see "word clock I/O" BNC connectors I was wondering if it could help to improve the accuracy in case I decide to use an external Hi-End PRO DAC. In that case, I would send the digital data from the Delta to an external DAC.
That's the reason of asking about the possible enhance accuracy using an external separate clock.

Bruce mentioned about the MADI connection, so I was also interested in that professional (Pros/against, etc.) as it reminded me the ST connection available in some Hi-End Wadia DACs: seems that they have the same advantages, long runs plus multi-channel.

About the multiple channel connections for multiple channels in many pro-audio devices , you are right, but, once you see the pictures of those sound-cards or PRO AD/DA converters, you can see clearly many analog outputs as standard (so, usually they are not modular) and that's the kind of circuitry that I wouldn´t like to pay (nor have). I know because I have asked the sales people about only 2 channels in some Pro-stores and they use to look at me as if I was crazy :).

RME ADI-2: well, it has coax and Toslink inputs... enough to be connected to any PC digital ouput. If not, it is necessary to add a protocol converter (USB-to-Toslink or USB-to-Coax). But you are right, this product should be in other cathegory.

The RME babyface seems to be a good product... and it must-be based on its price, with similar physical funtionality as the BMC-2 or some Apogee models: a DAC on the desk so you can control the speakers volume.

About the possibility of a Clock I/O when interconnecting a DAC to a PC, makes me wonder why that option was available in Frantz's Burmester units, Transport & DAC ? I was just trying to translate the same functionality in his Burmester DAC to a PC, I mean, what was considered an improvement could be also applied to a PC-to-DAC... or not ? What do you think ?
 
About the possibility of a Clock I/O when interconnecting a DAC to a PC, makes me wonder why that option was available in Frantz's Burmester units, Transport & DAC ? I was just trying to translate the same functionality in his Burmester DAC to a PC, I mean, what was considered an improvement could be also applied to a PC-to-DAC... or not ? What do you think ?

Exactly what I am trying to accomplish ...
 
Most of my previous suggestions were intended for Frantz and his own requirements (while Bruce could answer us -both-).

Thanks for the long reply. I was really replying to both you and Frantz.

Bruce said that he preferred SPDIF to USB or Firewire. I am not sure whether his preference was specific to output from a computer or if it referred to both input and output.

> I was wondering if it could help to improve the accuracy in case I decide to use an external
> Hi-End PRO DAC. In that case, I would send the digital data from the Delta to an external DAC.

For an ADC device, the same clock can drive the ADC process and generate the clock portion of
the SPDIF stream that is sent to a computer. In the computer, the digital data stream will normally be stored without a digital-to-analog operation for which low jitter might matter. The simplest implementation is fine.

For SPDIF output from a computer to a DAC box, the simple implementation is not so fine. You don't really want the clock embedded in the SPDIF stream to drive the d-to-a operation. So we might need a fancier DAC implementation to reduce jitter in the clock recovered from the SPDIF stream. Fancy PLLs, async resampling and big buffers are possibilities.

We might also consider sending a clock signal from the DAC box back to the computer to be used to drive the SPDIF output. There are some disadvantages:

- Since not every DAC can supply a suitable clock output, we are narrowing our choice of DACs.

- Since not every soundcard (or onboard sound) can accept a clock input, we are narrowing our choice of soundcards.

- An increasing number of audiophiles choose a laptop or a computer like a Mac Mini that has no PCI or PCIe slots. Have you seen a laptop that accepts a clock input for use in audio output?

- You might want to be able to output a mix of 44.1, 48, 88, 96, etc. content and have the DAC sense the clock rate of the input stream. When the DAC is generating the clock for the SPDIF, you may have to manually set the clock rate on the DAC every time you want to output something at a sample rate different from that in use.

Don't just assume that using SPDIF with a word clock cable from the DAC to the computer is your only option or the best option.

Most people who design DACs functionality will tell you that the lowest jitter solution is one where the clock is generated very close to the actual DAC chip and does not have to be adjusted to an incoming data stream and clock. PCI, USB and Firewire based interfaces can all achieve very low jitter and provide a good control interface for automatically adjusted to output sample rate and setup. All sorts of new async mode USB DACs are coming out now at various price points.

A comment on the RME ADI-2 and the Babyface. RME packages similar AD/DA functionality in a number of products with PCI, USB, Firewire and just SDPIF/AES/EBU interfaces. It is up to the buyer to select the product that fits his needs. RME gear is more expensive than M-Audio or Echo or some other pro-audio brands. Driver quality is one reason to buy RME.

I used the Babyface as an example of a RME product that provided a complete computer interface and DAC function. The ADI-2 is just an outboard AD/DA. The Babyface or a used RME Multiface are possibilities I'd consider.

Similarly, the TC Electronic BMC-2 appears to have similar DA capabilities to the Firewire based Konneck 6. Both products are on my short list for a DAC change.

MADI and jitter reduction: You provided a link to RME's description of their jitter reduction technology. The example of treating a jittery input clock from a MADI stream is scary. The jitter on the MADI stream is quite high. The level of jitter after RME's jitter reduction is lower but not low by the standards of async mode USB DACs like wavelength's and Ayre's. Is the difference in jitter levels audible?

Why value would MADI give you? Do you need long runs? Do you need many channels?

A comment on number of channels in Pro Gear: M-Audio, Echo, ESI, E-MU and others have solutions for 2 or 4 channels that are cost effective. The Lynx L22 card is a two channel version of the Lynx Two card.

Bill
 
Thanks, Bill ! Your long reply is a good sum-up answer to most of my doubts. The thing is that PROfessional products are new for me and, since the PRO sales people seem not to understand what an audiophile needs, and PRO forums are errr, too-PRO, most of their gear has its functions are a mystery (MADI, Word Clock I/O,...). Also I know that many of those PROducts have been included inside of Hi-End stuff (SOOLOOS Source One and its RME Hammerfall DSP 9632 PCI sound card), or outside (ESOTERIC & dCS Rubidium clocks). Some of them maybe dedicated to PRO field but some others seem to be applied only to (home) audio Hi-End.
In short, the line that separates both worlds (Home & Studio) seems to be not very defined lately and, I think, it is interesting to know what PROduct can be applied to Home audio stereo systems... basically because they seem to offer an excellent price/quality ratio. For that, knowing what are some PRO functions/featurings included in the PRO products, is always very interesting.
What value MADI would give me: well, as I commented before, I was used to see the ST connection in some Wadia products so, I know that the practical side was to keep the source close to you and the DAC as far as you may need... and you only needed an (expensive then) ST crystal cable. A long run of esoteric HI-End digital AES/EBU cable can cost an arm... while with MADI you'd only need a simple coaxial 75 ohms one. But if jitter reduction at the MADI receiver is not as good as you (or scary), surely we would prefer to keep that solution apart now.
I mean, you can make the D-to-A inside the PC or send a stream to an external DAC. In this case I wanted to know what possibilities the PRO world could offer.

So, what I was intending to know is what (solutions) the PRO world can do (or offer) for audiophiles.

Off the topic/thread (maybe),
In the case of a laptop that you mentioned, I can see only 3 possibilities:
a) USB/Firewire,
b) Toslink (not very common in most of laptops except, perhaps, Toshibas or some Macs) and/or
c) Network: if we could add a router (ethernet or with Wifi if you prefer), a NAS and a DLNA renderer/client (or Airport express if you prefer) to the system, we may see the info in the laptop, install a Mediaplayer program (kind of JRiver), through that MediaPlayer we can select the file stored in the NAS, and send it to the DLNA renderer unit (which can be connected to an external DAC through SPDIF). As WiFi is Asynchronous
...But, as said before, this has nothing to do with the PCIe sound-cards, obviously.

Lately, to have an audio Hi-End I have to visit 2 different kind of stores: Audio PRO & PC/Mac shop. Some months ago I didn´t know nor even about the possibilities that those two worlds can offer. Many options... and, as a Psickhotic audiophile, I want to have a view of all the possibilities... and try (most of) them :)).
When the (old) Audio Hi-End adds a kind of solution taken from Audio PRO or Computer world, the price is multiplied by 2... or more. Internet is making things cheaper, not only because of more competition itself, but also because audiophiles can have more info than ever. Perhaps so much information that, initially, it is a little bit confusing.
 
Well this is one reason why I created this forum to help bridge the gap between Pro and Audiophile. I've been on the front lines of this dilema for a decade. I always ask people, do you want good sound or a plug-n-play user interface. You're not going to get both. Not at this time anyway.
Good sound, like many of you know, you have to work for it.
The most stable and best sounding configuration I know of is Lynx AES16 or RME AES32 into an outboard DAC that accepts AES/EBU. When you start mixing USB, Firewire and other non-standard connections, you'll run into problems. On the MAC side it's easier. Going firewire to a Metric Halo is the best on that side.
Someone stated above that I like S/PDIF... no I don't. I like SDIF-3. It's a different protocol that is carried over a 75ohm coax as well, but can only carry one channel of PCM or DSD. You will find these connections on the back of a Tascam DV-RA1000HD.
I feel USB DACs were made for people that are more familiar with computers and were trying to make an easy situation. Most of the time they work great. It's even worse when you start going from USB to S/PDIF or mixing conversions. I would stay far away from that situation unless you're a total geek and/or don't have a life.

More to come.....
 
Let’s sat there are some reasons why already in the early stages of psychology (1800 late) as a science they found out that they were in need of experimental designs eliminating the bias of the participants.
 
Hello Bruce,

I have a modest, but well done card, the ESI Juli@ which I use for spdif output over a good toslink connector. The only think which is not clear to me is how internal noise (psu, noise and mechanical noise) can affects the digital output. Peoples keep saying that USB is superior wrt noise and jitter induced by noise, but I am not sure whether this is another audiophile myth or a scientific truth. What do you think about that?

Then I have a further question which may be a bit OT here. I am a linux user by I use Win for playing music. From time to time I record kids playing the piano with my Juli@ (from the analog line input). What recording software suporting my card would you recommend? I am looking for something simple and effective. In the past I used audacity, but it doesn't support ASIO drivers for obvoius reasons.

Thanks for your posts!
Pietro
 
Hello Bruce,

I have a modest, but well done card, the ESI Juli@ which I use for spdif output over a good toslink connector. The only think which is not clear to me is how internal noise (psu, noise and mechanical noise) can affects the digital output. Peoples keep saying that USB is superior wrt noise and jitter induced by noise, but I am not sure whether this is another audiophile myth or a scientific truth. What do you think about that?
I am sure Bruce will have an informed opinion on this :). But here is my answer based on very fresh experience.

I had two PCs feeding DACs using optical connection (all that was available on the systems I had). One was feeding a Mark Levinson 36S DAC and then other, Mark Levinson No 502 processor. I recently received an async USB to S/PDIF converter and tested it on both. The improvement was immediate and distinct.

I needed the adapter for another system so pulled it out of 502 system above. Well, wouldn't you know it... One of our guys is friends with one of the major rock and roll bands and was having them come out and visit our showroom. Next thing I know they come out saying something is wrong with the sound. I tell them that I like to put in the other adapter. Surprised like you, they ask why it would make a difference. I try to explain but it is clearly too difficult for them to understand. So I ask them to just listen. One of them asks me if it is going to fix this or that. I said I can't tell you what it will do. Please just listen. So I hook it and he was shocked to hear the difference and improvement.

Needless to say, I have more of the boxes on order :).

Now that you know the rather useless anecdotal evidence :), let me explain the science briefly. There is no question that noise out of the PC can pollute the accuracy of analog reproduction of digital data. This can happen in multiple ways:

1. Electrical bleed through. If you connect using standard electrical connection such as S/PDIF, then any noise on PC power supply ground will land on the DAC. Seeing how a 16-bit signal is dividing a nominal 1 volt (similar to what comes out of AA battery) into 65,000 chunks, it doesn't take much to reduce accuracy.

2. Optical connection gets rid of the above problem. But, you now have a waveform which does not have as sharp as an edge (unless you use very good glass optical cables). This causes the receiver to misjudge the timing of the digital values. Since the timing directly drives the output of the DAC, you lose accuracy this way. This is as you noted is jitter. In this case, it is cable induced form.

Now in order for this to matter, two things have to happen:

1. How sensitive your equipment is to such factors. Beside the two Mark Levinson DACs above, I have also tested the same with the Berkeley DAC. On all three, despite being audiophile grade equipment, the connection type and quality matters.

2. How well you can hear such artifacts. 99% of the general population would never hear it and if they heard it, they would not care. I would say at least half the audiophile population will fail to hear it just the same if not more. These are strange artifacts that are not easy to detect. Hence the reason you see conflicting reports on whether such things matter.

To be sure, no matter how much jitter you induce, and noise for that matter, the sound will still be highly dynamic and have full frequency response. So at some level, you can say it really doesn't matter if those are your standards of measurement.
 
Thanks Amir... I couldn't have said it any better.

I'm not familiar with that card, but I just went to the website and it says: EWDM driver: MME, DirectSound, ASIO 2.0 and GSIF 2.0 support
Other than Audacity, I'd certainly recommend Sony's SoundForge Audio Studio for $64. This is a relatively inexpensive program that has all the recording/editing capabilities one would ever need.
Mackie Tracktion 3 for only $20 is another option as well for recording.
 
Nobody has ever heard USB or SPDIF.
It are standards, a big pile of technical papers.
In practice we do hear the implementation.
Drive a SPDIF out with a cheap frequency synthesiser and you have tons of jitter
Implement a USB audio in synchronous mode and you have tons of jitter.
Implement asynchronous USB (eliminates input jitter) with a cheap frequency synthesiser and you have tons of jitter again.

Now if we implement asynchronous USB with a perfect clock wouldn’t that be the perfect solution?
Obvious not as there are DACs doing this but galvanic isolate the DAC from the PC to avoid disturbance, add a filter on the AC, etc.

I’m afraid the protocol is not the message, the implementation is.
It isn’t a matter of a myth but the usual jumping to conclusions.

The Juli@ has a good reputation.
You can do a simple test.
Play some music
Start e.g. dbPoweramp and let it convert 4 audio files simultaneously
You have substantial CPU and I/O
Check is you hear a difference.
 
No.. that's just another proprietary connection the Swiss want to use for their cards.



Well I'll tell you the truth... I have had every clock in here to test from the Big Ben to the Antelope Rubidium clock and neither has made a difference. You always... always want to use the internal clock of a DAC and make it the Master... IMO! I've tried using the Lynx Synchro-lock on their card and other such ways, but when you only have 1 converter in your system, always use the internal DAC clock. Manufacturers that use and sell you an outboard clock are just making money off of you... is the clock in their own DAC broken? Did they skimp on the clock inside?

Unless you are recording with multiple converters, such as in a studio or location setting, I never use an outboard clock, period!


I know that this matter may deserve a specific thread but, regarding your comments about external clocks and together with the link that Vincent kindly sent us (a technical review about external clocks effects and their no possitive effect - adding more jitter, in fact- , published on "Sound on Sound"), I found this interesting thread in another forum: a real "war of arguments" among Dan Lavry, Bob Katz and Apogee Electronics' staff: quite interesting, by the way, 'though Bruce has summed-up pretty well.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/14324/0/208/0/

Interesting to call the attention about the fact that this matter was already discussed 6 years ago... hype agains facts? You bet.
 
Interesting to call the attention about the fact that this matter was already discussed 6 years ago... hype agains facts? You bet.

Yeah, that was a big fiasco with Dan Lavry (who designs converters) and Apogee (the makers of the Big Ben clock). There was some mudslinging going on back then.
 
I also want to add other than Audacity, I have used and fully recommend "Reaper". This is a software much like Audacity, but having more features and better suited for recording. Can be used on MAC and Windoze. Best thing about it is that it's FREE!!! Take a look.

Reaper
 

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