Audio Soundcards

[Bruce B]

Lets start off by saying there are two type of "Soundcard".

1. The card performs a Digital to Analog conversion right on the card, negating the need for an outboard DAC.

2. The card streams the digital signal to an outboard DAC.

In the first case, I've been using a great soundcard called the LynxTwo-B. This has an I/O configuration via breakout cable of 2 in and 6 out, making it great for Home Theatre PC (HTPC). Other cards by M-Audio (now Avid) and a host of others can do this as well. It's a simple, economical solution for anyone to setup and forget it. For Windows users, most of these cards use ASIO drivers. Most can also be used with WDM drivers as well if you're having problems with ASIO. For MAC users you can use the AU driver.

In the second case, the card is just an interface to an outboard DAC. Most of these cards use a DB25/26 breakout cable to XLR AES/EBU connectors. The most popular of these cards are the Lynx AES 16 and the RME AES 32. These cards also need drivers such as the ASIO/WDM or AU for MAC


Now with these 2 types of cards, you need to determine if it is PCI or PCI-e. (see photo below)


The last are Proprietary cards, such as the ones used for Pro Tools, Pyramix (Mykerinos), Sonoma and Soundscape. Lately there has been development in that these cards use and ASIO-bridge driver so you can use the proprietary card with other programs such as Media Monkey, Amarra and others.

IMO... the best interface to use for a DAC is either AES/EBU or MADI. I do not care for F/W or USB, that's just my preference.

 

[audiofilodigital]

Excellent, Bruce (as always) !
Just to make it a little bit more complex : in I've noticed the word-in & out connectors (I mean, in the DB25/26 breakout cable).
Could you, please, confirm what's its purpose ? To be connected to a more accurate (external) clock unit ?

 

[Bruce B]

Excellent, Bruce (as always) !
Just to make it a little bit more complex : in I've noticed the word-in & out connectors (I mean, in the DB25/26 breakout cable).
Could you, please, confirm what's its purpose ? To be connected to a more accurate (external) clock unit ?

Yes, this is correct. Sometimes it's a separate break-out cable that contains word in/out on BNC cables for clock. Here is an example or our Pyramix clock cable. Most of these cables will allow for your DAC to either send clock information to your PC as Master or to receive clock information from your PC as Slave.

 

[audiofilodigital]

Thanks. Well,...you are always one step ahead
I was expecting a DB-15 or DB-25/26 but I can see... is that an i2s connector (left side) ?

Regarding that external clock... I thought that if the clock was installed pretty close to the DACs, jitter would be minimized... In the case of an external (so, separated) clock, how is this possible ? I guess it must be regarding asynchronous or adaptive mode ? In short, could you explain or give us an schematic about different elements and how to connect them ? I was thinking about a PCIe card with the possibility of an external clock (kind of Big Ben, you know what I mean) but not sure about how this works and if it really can help to get more accuracy...

 

[Bruce B]

Thanks. Well,...you are always one step ahead
I was expecting a DB-15 or DB-25/26 but I can see... is that an i2s connector (left side) ?

No.. that's just another proprietary connection the Swiss want to use for their cards.

I was thinking about a PCIe card with the possibility of an external clock (kind of Big Ben, you know what I mean) but not sure about how this works and if it really can help to get more accuracy...

Well I'll tell you the truth... I have had every clock in here to test from the Big Ben to the Antelope Rubidium clock and neither has made a difference. You always... always want to use the internal clock of a DAC and make it the Master... IMO! I've tried using the Lynx Synchro-lock on their card and other such ways, but when you only have 1 converter in your system, always use the internal DAC clock. Manufacturers that use and sell you an outboard clock are just making money off of you... is the clock in their own DAC broken? Did they skimp on the clock inside?

Unless you are recording with multiple converters, such as in a studio or location setting, I never use an outboard clock, period!

 

[audiofilodigital]

Only in a few occasions I have "listened" to such honest comments and opinions expressed so sincerely. ...the Rubidium clock was going to be my next question ))). This is great as, this way, I can focus my attention on other aspects. The concept of an external clock was against other ideas that I've read so... I was really confused !

Another question, Bruce (sorry but you are one of the few who is "there", I mean, in the recording studio, the real place where the original sound -what really matters- is played , what's the reason for compression when recording ? I have asked this question to the sales-guy at the music store (where I am starting to buy and test the PRO products) and he says compression give them the chance to get a particular sound to the recording... if so, I am starting to ask myself, what we, audiophiles, should looking for... a faithful sound of the instrument ? ...to hit the kind of sound that the engineer has liked or decided at his sound studio ? ...mmmh...

...and the last one ( for today : I haven´t had the opportunity to compare 24/96 against 24/192. The differences are as big (or little, as it depends on many factors) as comparing 16 bits vs. 24 bits ?

Thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge with us.

 

[Bruce B]

what's the reason for compression when recording ?

Compression is used during recording so there won't be any overs/clipping. When you ask a drummer to play as loud as they are going to play so you can set your levels, invariably they will play 3dB louder when it comes time to record! Same with singers.
Sometimes.. but not always, compression is used to color the sound. This is mostly used during the mixing stage. A mixing engineer will more than likely use a particular mic/pre/EQ to color the sound to their taste. If a drum kit was recorded using 10 or so mics, using one compressor from all of those mic feeds sometimes seem to "gel or glue" everything together.
Compression is used during mastering to bring the softest/loudest parts closer together. If you're in a high noise environment, like a car, if compression wasn't used, you will be reaching for the volume knob constantly. You wouldn't be able to hear the quiet parts, so you turn the volume up. During the loud passages, you have to turn it down!

I haven´t had the opportunity to compare 24/96 against 24/192. The differences are as big (or little, as it depends on many factors) as comparing 16 bits vs. 24 bits ?

No, there is a much bigger difference in 16 vs. 24 bit than there is 96 vs. 192 sampling rate. I much rather receive a file for mastering in 24/44.1 than 16/384kHz.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Well I'll tell you the truth... I have had every clock in here to test from the Big Ben to the Antelope Rubidium clock and neither has made a difference....
I never use an outboard clock, period!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

 

[FrantzM]

Bruce

Thanks so very much. I am off the Transport / DAC system as source but I do remember very precisely that the Burmester 979/980 system sounded better when the Synch card was used. I was actually fairly able to identify if the cable was used or not with knowledge removed (blind not ABX) .. It dawned to me then that it was the better solution to use the DAC as the master and the transport as the slave... Outside clocks were to me an unnecessary complication and expense (ala dCS and others) ...
Nowyour post makes it even more interesting since it seems with tsome cards (RME and Lynx to name these two) this canbe accomplished with a PC..
How is this done?
Also could you let us know about cards that are about as good as the Lnx but with at less lofty price tag?

Thanks for starting such a wonderful thread and sharing your knowledge with us ...

 

[Bruce B]

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

Yes, this echos my sentiments exactly. We have used an external clock when 3 or more A-D converters were recording for stability and ease of use.
But to me, using and outboard clock on a DAC for playback is just wasting your money!

 

[audiofilodigital]

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun10/articles/masterclocks.htm

Thank you (both), Vincent & Bruce. I use to read SoundOnSound lately but I didn´t know they had already tested this subject. It's a pleasure to get not commercialy biased info. This forum may become into something serious !

 

[Bruce B]

This forum may become into something serious !

Being on both the professional and audiophile front has really helped me to take what I need from both camps and apply it to a quality and productive business.

Also could you let us know about cards that are about as good as the Lnx but with at less lofty price tag?
...

I like the M-audio Audiophile 192 card. They're under $200 and I see them on eBay for much less than that.

 

[audiofilodigital]

Bruce

Also could you let us know about cards that are about as good as the Lnx but with at less lofty price tag?

Frantz, I can suggest you the Asus Xonar Essence ST (around 160€) or this other one http://www.esi-audio.com/products/prodigy71hifi/

 

[garylkoh]

I like the M-audio Audiophile 192 card. They're under $200 and I see them on eBay for much less than that.

M-Audio makes some very high value-for-money products. The original M-Audio Audiophile USB was the first USB DAC I owned, and my cheap go-to for a USB interface is the M-Audio Transit. As a USB to optical S/PDIF that works at 24/96, it is surprisingly good for $99.

 

[audiofilodigital]

I recently got a (used) M-Audio Delta 1010LT for around 100 $ but I haven´t had free time to install and evaluate it carefully.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Thanks for all the answers people! .. Now how does one go about Synch PC to DAC? I am sincerely interested in this method; the best DAC-Transport combination , I have heard to date use this method of Synching and it seems to me that this has more to do with the final result than anything these (expensive) combination did otherwise ...
How would one synch a PC with the Benchmark HDR for example ? Or other DACs? What is required to do so .. I didn't notice a c"Clock Out" in the Benchmark. How can one extract/derive this signal to synch the PC?
Thanks in advance people

 

[Vincent Kars]

I’m afraid it is very simple: if the DAC and/or the sound card don’t have a clock in/out you can’t.
An alternative is not to use SPDIF but Asynchronous USB.
In case of Async USB the DAC times the data out of the PC.
This allows you to use a fixed clock driving the DAC

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

THanks for the answers, I suspected that..

Could you recommend modestly priced cards cards with that clock in?
DACs with clock output?

Thanks in advance

 

[audiofilodigital]

Hi Frantz,

Not sure about what you have on your mind... 'though I guess
Based on the 2 different kind of sound-cards:
a) if the sound card already has the DAC... I can´t see the reason to add an external DAC, so I guess you are refering to the
b) "The card streams the digital signal to an outboard DAC. ". Well, I am not an expert (at all) so, surely some professionals can let us know further info but, the ones that I've found provide an external DAC themselves (http://lynxstudio.com/product_detail.asp?i=2)... I mean, you get the PCIe card and connect to the own external DAC through the (D-Sub) wires supplied... I haven´t tried this yet but I guess that, in such case, the master-clock that commands, if you've connected the BNC in/out cables between both, is the one implemented at the external DAC... This is what, I think, you are mentally going round... .

Now this gives me the opportunity to ask (again) Bruce about his mentioned favourite interconnection: MADI... What's exactly that? I mean, why do you think it is better than other optional connections (like USB, SPDIF) ? Does it offer a benefit only for recording or also when transmiting the stereo digital signal to the DAC ?
Are the advantages the ones mentioned here ?
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_madi_center.php?page=content/products/en_products_madi_glossar
It seems a kind of different plastic fiber connection (instead of metal cables). Does it have a real benefit on only 2 channels when sending the digital stream to the DAC? The info related to MADI is always mentioning the multichannel.
It reminds me the single-mode from ATT used on early Wadia DACs...

Thank you in advance !

P.s.: what a wonderful Forum ! After my time dealing with Hi-End products, this is one of those few chances to learn really something because we can talk and listen to real professionals...

 

[FrantzM]

@audiofilodigital

THe BUrmester 970/980 DAC/Trans[prt combo do have a third connection which is a clock. THe transport is synched (slaved) to the DAc and it does make a noticeable difference... I am under the sucpiscion that this slaving of the transport to the DAC is important. I wold like to do that with a PC, now that I am using PC as music sources.
I have built a few music server the latest that proposed by the Pacific Northwest Audio CLub , our own Gary L. Koh presented to this forum.. I followed the , very clear and extensive, instructions and the server works very well...
I am on the path to build another server, now with a good to superlative SOund Card that will be used just to feed the external DAC, I presently use, the Benchmark HDR. I am looking forward to acquire either a Weiss of another top flight DAC or the DeVialet Integrated...
I am interested to synch the C output to the DAC and would like to have some recommendation abut Sound Cards and DACs allowing such pairing. And links about DAC/Sound Card synchronization methods, a primer if you will
Looking for example at the DAC-2 from Weiss I don't see any "Clock" or Synch output? Or is this something that can be done from AES/EBU stream? My ignorance of the AES/EBU Interface is showing , glaringly here ...

I am not married to the Lynx idea, any other cards that are deemed of equivalent or similar performance/quality and less expensive are welcomed. AS I understand it the Weill has 16 channels and in a 2-Ch situation, 14 channels, and their associated electronics/components are wasted you pay for all these channels and are not using them . I would have preferred a less wasteful alternative.

Thanks in advance for the replies