An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"

Audire

VIP/Donor
Jan 18, 2019
1,479
1,833
330
FL Panhandle
I need to be emotionally involved. Toe tapping magic is my requirement for excellent sound. Call it suspension of unbelief or whatever. IMO, some systems are capable of this, many, if not most, aren’t? I could care less about component specs. No matter the specs, I desire to be emotionally evolved in the music ….

I get this all the time using vinyl and occasionally using digital. But our Taiko is in route - like 5 weeks out - our Taiko demo demonstrated emotional involvement! I’m expecting emotional involvement and so much more since we are also obtaining the Taiko Switch, which I’ve never heard before!
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,862
6,935
1,400
the Upper Midwest
So, SOD is not as I thought was inferred at the beginning, that you felt like you were listening to live music, listening to your system?

Am I correct that, the fact listening to my system sound, can transport me, to what feels like somewhere other than my room, is the general accepted description of SOD?

You are right about things at the outset. The only way the clumsy phrase works in any fashion is if the object of disbelief is live music. Ron's robot said: "In the context of high-end audio, suspension of disbelief occurs when the listener becomes so engrossed in the musical experience that they forget they are listening to a reproduced sound rather than a live performance. "

As you notice, now it is getting slippery in order to "Save the Phrase". Now we get: "I think this" [the reference to hearing live music] "treats the concept too literally. It is an abstract concept, not a literal description." Or the wierd deflection 'it's colloquial." The usual wagons are circling. Fun to watch
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterA

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,669
10,942
3,515
USA
I think this treats the concept too literally. It is an abstract concept, not a literal description.

If you do not mean what the words imply, why do you use them? As a reviewer, are you not attempting to convey meaning as clearly as possible?

There are better ways, IMO, to describe this abstract concept using simple and clear language.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tima

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,669
10,942
3,515
USA
LoL ! Do attempt to be honest here at least … Were this particular thread initiated by a brand new 2023 member with a handful of posts, rather than one of the owners of the forum whom you and tim hold personally responsible for the departure from the forum of your most Worshiped Audio Guru , neither of you would be remotely as anally retentive in pursuing the OP as you have been … That Pound Of Flesh Aye :rolleyes:

First, I don’t worship anyone. Second, I think Ron Resnick is the only member capable of writing such an opening post. Third, David Karmeli has nothing to do with this.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Argonaut

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,361
1,355
1,730
Pleasanton, CA
I suspend disbelief when I see micro throwing Ron through the saloon window and the fight is on.
 

Audire

VIP/Donor
Jan 18, 2019
1,479
1,833
330
FL Panhandle
I suspend disbelief when I see micro throwing Ron through the saloon window and the fight is on.
Ron is much more than a mere member, he’s a knowledgeable member. Knowledge + humility is an honorable combination! I doubt very seriously if you could threw him through a saloon widow. Even if you could what would it prove other than you subscribe to violence when others don’t agree with you!
 
Last edited:

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,641
4,896
940
All of us should take a moment to ponder how resolution affects each of EE, ME, and SOD, and if either digital or vinyl could affect the triumvirate differently

All SODs rely on resolution. That should be our mantra.

A full on EE can be brought on by using lots and lots of BS ie Believable Sound and or Beautiful Sound.

EE has a chemical payoff that feeds AA1 (Audiophile Addictions).

ME is a form of EE and for me in this hobby it’s definitely all about ME.

ME activates EE by turning off AA2 (Audio Analysis) helping in making the illusion of SOD a real reality.

ME I can get anywhere… live music, iPhone, in the car and especially in me system.

ME relies on coherency and tonal balance but not on resolution the way SOD does.

Two things that do we know for sure… EE can be stripped away by the use of AI (Audiophile Intellectualism) and by the irresponsible use of AA3 (Audiophile Acronyms).
 
Last edited:

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
22,646
13,683
2,710
London
One thing we should strive to improve in audio is ROI
 
  • Like
Reactions: RHMMMM and Pokey77

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I would never have believed this thread would generate 267+ posts, but every time I look at the “new posts,” my disbelief is suspended.

Great! Does this mean you imagine you are somewhere else or you are emotionally engaged to the thread? :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bobvin

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,341
3,060
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
"During my recent interview with WBF, I think additional clarification of why relying on audiophile sonic terms like detail, pinpoint imaging, crisp leading-edge transients, black background, and slam to describe the attributes of component performance is counterproductive if one’s goal is to reproduce music in your home to a believable level. It is interesting to note that Harry Pearson was not the originator of these terms. He was rather more oriented to talking eloquently about the emotional experience of listening to music performed on a believable level through a home audio system. The press’s sonic terms really came from those who have unsuccessfully tried to emulate him.

Because our industry struggles to grow beyond its infancy, quite a few high-end audio companies do not yet have the resources or know-how to promote their own products. Many unfortunately have relied and rely upon the audio press to do their bidding. For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. Instead, more designers and manufacturers should be telling their own stories more effectively with the power of videos, interviews, the internet, and customer events in listening conditions that are more acoustically controlled than hotel rooms. With a handful of exceptions, members of the audio press do not have a listening environment that is capable of accurately reproducing a wide variety of source material at believable levels, nor do they typically have a reference standard system of components in place that is on a level that would qualify them to judge the performance of a well-designed audio component. Quite a few of them also do not have extensive and ongoing live acoustic music listening experiences. It perplexes me why so many manufacturers still run to the press for approval, and some dealers bank on reviews to attract customers. In contrast, Jacob Heilbrunn comes to mind as an audio writer who has broken the mold of the “amateur audio press.” He has a professionally designed listening studio that helps him become immersed in all types of music listening experiences. He also has an established reference system and a huge, eclectic music collection. He’s also an articulate, knowledgeable, and creative professional writer who attends a lot of live music performances. Are there others like Jacob out there?"


This is an excerpt from Karen Sumners thread and maybe this can help here as I think that not all have read this.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,249
1,778
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
"During my recent interview with WBF, I think additional clarification of why relying on audiophile sonic terms like detail, pinpoint imaging, crisp leading-edge transients, black background, and slam to describe the attributes of component performance is counterproductive if one’s goal is to reproduce music in your home to a believable level. It is interesting to note that Harry Pearson was not the originator of these terms. He was rather more oriented to talking eloquently about the emotional experience of listening to music performed on a believable level through a home audio system. The press’s sonic terms really came from those who have unsuccessfully tried to emulate him.

Because our industry struggles to grow beyond its infancy, quite a few high-end audio companies do not yet have the resources or know-how to promote their own products. Many unfortunately have relied and rely upon the audio press to do their bidding. For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. Instead, more designers and manufacturers should be telling their own stories more effectively with the power of videos, interviews, the internet, and customer events in listening conditions that are more acoustically controlled than hotel rooms. With a handful of exceptions, members of the audio press do not have a listening environment that is capable of accurately reproducing a wide variety of source material at believable levels, nor do they typically have a reference standard system of components in place that is on a level that would qualify them to judge the performance of a well-designed audio component. Quite a few of them also do not have extensive and ongoing live acoustic music listening experiences. It perplexes me why so many manufacturers still run to the press for approval, and some dealers bank on reviews to attract customers. In contrast, Jacob Heilbrunn comes to mind as an audio writer who has broken the mold of the “amateur audio press.” He has a professionally designed listening studio that helps him become immersed in all types of music listening experiences. He also has an established reference system and a huge, eclectic music collection. He’s also an articulate, knowledgeable, and creative professional writer who attends a lot of live music performances. Are there others like Jacob out there?"


This is an excerpt from Karen Sumners thread and maybe this can help here as I think that not all have read this.

Just a couple of observations...In the case of TAS, many of the writers in their own way have Jacob-level systems. Now not everyone has an Air Force Zero of course, but I also don't believe you need one for say Wayne Garcia to evaluate Cronus Magnums or the latest Magnepan.

As for listening to live music as a reference, I am pretty sure all of the TAS reviewers do that regularly.

I do agree mostly that manufacturers have to and can do more, but the press can turbocharge or enhance that effort if the press keeps transforming digitally.

In my opinion based on prior reviewing work, recording work, and running Nextscreen for three years, the audio business has to think of different customer segments and educate and market to them in different ways and in different channels.

The owner of Estate type systems like Gobble/CH/Wadax is very different from the junior banker in a tiny apartment in London or Berlin or NYC. The personal audio aficionado is very different from the Metropolitan system buyer of integrated and monitors.

Different stories to tell, on different channels, with different timing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Another Johnson

Elliot G.

Industry Expert
Jul 22, 2010
3,341
3,060
1,910
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
www.bendingwaveusa.com
Thanks again again nothing to do with the subject but another nice commercial.
I posted this for context on the term SOD that Karen Sumner used in her discourse.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,249
1,778
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
Thanks again again nothing to do with the subject but another nice commercial.
I posted this for context on the term SOD that Karen Sumner used in her discourse.

Quit being grumpy. My comments were directly related to Karen’s comments and were well intentioned.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bobvin

VIP/Donor
Jun 7, 2014
1,719
3,076
665
Portland
www.purewatersystems.com
Ron is much more than a mere member, he’s a knowledgeable member. Knowledge + humility is an honorable combination! I doubt very seriously if you could threw him through a saloon widow. Even if you could what would it prove other than you subscribe to violence when others don’t agree with you!
I come back to this thread off and on, so I’m likely way out of context — but where’s the harm in seeing if Ron can fly? ;)
 

Audire

VIP/Donor
Jan 18, 2019
1,479
1,833
330
FL Panhandle
I come back to this thread off and on, so I’m likely way out of context — but where’s the harm in seeing if Ron can fly? ;)
Tinka may bite us, so we must be careful… :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bobvin

the sound of Tao

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2014
3,641
4,896
940
One thing we should strive to improve in audio is ROI
I’m never sure when you’re being serious Ked… as they say in the hi end audio industry OMG WTF is ROI :eek:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75 and Bobvin

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,300
775
1,698
"During my recent interview with WBF, I think additional clarification of why relying on audiophile sonic terms like detail, pinpoint imaging, crisp leading-edge transients, black background, and slam to describe the attributes of component performance is counterproductive if one’s goal is to reproduce music in your home to a believable level. It is interesting to note that Harry Pearson was not the originator of these terms. He was rather more oriented to talking eloquently about the emotional experience of listening to music performed on a believable level through a home audio system. The press’s sonic terms really came from those who have unsuccessfully tried to emulate him.

Because our industry struggles to grow beyond its infancy, quite a few high-end audio companies do not yet have the resources or know-how to promote their own products. Many unfortunately have relied and rely upon the audio press to do their bidding. For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. Instead, more designers and manufacturers should be telling their own stories more effectively with the power of videos, interviews, the internet, and customer events in listening conditions that are more acoustically controlled than hotel rooms. With a handful of exceptions, members of the audio press do not have a listening environment that is capable of accurately reproducing a wide variety of source material at believable levels, nor do they typically have a reference standard system of components in place that is on a level that would qualify them to judge the performance of a well-designed audio component. Quite a few of them also do not have extensive and ongoing live acoustic music listening experiences. It perplexes me why so many manufacturers still run to the press for approval, and some dealers bank on reviews to attract customers. In contrast, Jacob Heilbrunn comes to mind as an audio writer who has broken the mold of the “amateur audio press.” He has a professionally designed listening studio that helps him become immersed in all types of music listening experiences. He also has an established reference system and a huge, eclectic music collection. He’s also an articulate, knowledgeable, and creative professional writer who attends a lot of live music performances. Are there others like Jacob out there?"


This is an excerpt from Karen Sumners thread and maybe this can help here as I think that not all have read this.

This is wonderful piece of writing. Until she gets to the Heilbrunn part and Wilson.

But I would rather clean my toilets after working a 17 hour day than listen to Wilson, which bastardizes music with a severe hifi coloration.

Nothing personal against her, but she lacks the fundamentals of psychology of subjectivity (like the vast majority of audiophiles): experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multi-dimensional, and impalpable. It's kind of that "natural sound" thread. No one really understands what DDK fans mean by "natural sound" other than the guys who have experiences the sound at DDK's house. Yet her words apply to both my big MBBL system and my Zu - SET system.
 

Lee

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2011
3,249
1,778
1,260
Alpharetta, Georgia
This is wonderful piece of writing. Until she gets to the Heilbrunn part and Wilson.

But I would rather clean my toilets after working a 17 hour day than listen to Wilson, which bastardizes music with a severe hifi coloration.

Nothing personal against her, but she lacks the fundamentals of psychology of subjectivity (like the vast majority of audiophiles): experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multi-dimensional, and impalpable. It's kind of that "natural sound" thread. No one really understands what DDK fans mean by "natural sound" other than the guys who have experiences the sound at DDK's house. Yet her words apply to both my big MBBL system and my Zu - SET system.

Lol. Spoken like a man who has never heard Jacob’s system.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
Lol. Spoken like a man who has never heard Jacob’s system.

And people ask why WBF can't attract new members with great systems and many of them are not active posters any more ... :rolleyes:
 
  • Like
Reactions: abeidrov and Lee

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing