An Explanation of the Term "Suspension of Disbelief"

[Lee]

And people ask why WBF can't attract new members with great systems and many of them are not active posters any more ...

And Jacob’s system is wonderfully natural and effortless sounding.

 

[caesar]

And people ask why WBF can't attract new members with great systems and many of them are not active posters any more ...

I think your post is disconnected from reality. Assuming youre talking about popular hifi brands, Most guys who post on forums want to brag about their systems. It satisfies their ego that others will like it also.

it’s the guys with the more obscure brands , who don’t get any “likes” after posting their systems, are the ones who participate less in the forum.

just basic social dynamics

 

[emoonie]

Personally to me Suspension of Disbelief (capitalized) is (was) a state where a change made to my system is so great I became astonished. Literally shaking my head and laughing. These came far and few between even in the beginning. I'm pretty much not astonished anymore. YMMV

 

[KeithR]

"During my recent interview with WBF, I think additional clarification of why relying on audiophile sonic terms like detail, pinpoint imaging, crisp leading-edge transients, black background, and slam to describe the attributes of component performance is counterproductive if one’s goal is to reproduce music in your home to a believable level. It is interesting to note that Harry Pearson was not the originator of these terms. He was rather more oriented to talking eloquently about the emotional experience of listening to music performed on a believable level through a home audio system. The press’s sonic terms really came from those who have unsuccessfully tried to emulate him.

Because our industry struggles to grow beyond its infancy, quite a few high-end audio companies do not yet have the resources or know-how to promote their own products. Many unfortunately have relied and rely upon the audio press to do their bidding. For our industry to move closer to our goal of helping our customers suspend their disbelief that they are only listening to a hifi, more manufacturers need to grow beyond depending on the press to build their notoriety. Instead, more designers and manufacturers should be telling their own stories more effectively with the power of videos, interviews, the internet, and customer events in listening conditions that are more acoustically controlled than hotel rooms. With a handful of exceptions, members of the audio press do not have a listening environment that is capable of accurately reproducing a wide variety of source material at believable levels, nor do they typically have a reference standard system of components in place that is on a level that would qualify them to judge the performance of a well-designed audio component. Quite a few of them also do not have extensive and ongoing live acoustic music listening experiences. It perplexes me why so many manufacturers still run to the press for approval, and some dealers bank on reviews to attract customers. In contrast, Jacob Heilbrunn comes to mind as an audio writer who has broken the mold of the “amateur audio press.” He has a professionally designed listening studio that helps him become immersed in all types of music listening experiences. He also has an established reference system and a huge, eclectic music collection. He’s also an articulate, knowledgeable, and creative professional writer who attends a lot of live music performances. Are there others like Jacob out there?"


This is an excerpt from Karen Sumners thread and maybe this can help here as I think that not all have read this.

So a $1mm+ system is needed to review gear?

Honestly almost everyone i meet has played an instrument, sees live music, or what not. And yet we don’t all like the same thing which is telling.

 

[Ron Resnick]

she lacks the fundamentals of psychology of subjectivity (like the vast majority of audiophiles): experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multi-dimensional, and impalpable.

The irony here is that your rants against the speakers that you subjectively do not like suggest it is you who lacks the fundamentals of the psychology of subjectivity.

It's kind of that "natural sound" thread. No one really understands what DDK fans mean by "natural sound" other than the guys who have experiences the sound at DDK's house. Yet her words apply to both my big MBBL system and my Zu - SET system.

"No one"? Speak for yourself -- don't project your personal views on to everyone else. Just because you do not understand it does not mean "no one" understands it.

I know what they mean by "natural sound," and so do many other people.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think your post is disconnected from reality. Assuming youre talking about popular hifi brands, Most guys who post on forums want to brag about their systems. It satisfies their ego that others will like it also.

it’s the guys with the more obscure brands , who don’t get any “likes” after posting their systems, are the ones who participate less in the forum.

just basic social dynamics

my gear brands are mostly obscure. no one pays any attention to Evolution, it's like it does not exist. and for many years darTZeel was obscure, more known for it's colors than performance. the NVS was also under the radar.

gear brands have nothing to do with activity or respect. it's an easy target for the caesar's of the world, but the dots don't connect. recognition comes from passion, effort and contributions. i realize that does not jive with your cynicism. and some people with expensive systems have other priorities than interacting here, it's not for everyone for plenty of different reasons.

 

[Ron Resnick]

gear brands have nothing to do with activity or respect. . . . the dots don't connect. recognition comes from passion, effort and contributions. . . . and some people with expensive systems have other priorities than interacting here, it's not for everyone for plenty of different reasons.

All very true points, I think!

 

[Lee]

my gear brands are mostly obscure. no one pays any attention to Evolution, it's like it does not exist. and for many years darTZeel was obscure, more known for it's colors than performance. the NVS was also under the radar.

gear brands have nothing to do with activity or respect. it's an easy target for the caesar's of the world, but the dots don't connect. recognition comes from passion, effort and contributions. i realize that does not jive with your cynicism. and some people with expensive systems have other priorities than interacting here, it's not for everyone for plenty of different reasons.

Great post. Also, I suspect some of the magic you have is due to a very precise and thought through setup that allows your fine gear to shine.

 

[Elliot G.]

So a $1mm+ system is needed to review gear?

Honestly almost everyone i meet has played an instrument, sees live music, or what not. And yet we don’t all like the same thing which is telling.

Keith , I posted that solely to show how she used the phrase SOD in context. I did not want to cut out all the other information so that it looked unfair to Karen or to try to use it in a way not consistent with her post.

I do believe on the other subject that to review some gear one would need a quality room and system set up that is appropriate for the equipment.
So to review a M9 or XVX or Majestic, or MBL extreme etc. would probably require a million dollar system.

 

[Elliot G.]

my gear brands are mostly obscure. no one pays any attention to Evolution, it's like it does not exist. and for many years darTZeel was obscure, more known for it's colors than performance. the NVS was also under the radar.

gear brands have nothing to do with activity or respect. it's an easy target for the caesar's of the world, but the dots don't connect. recognition comes from passion, effort and contributions. i realize that does not jive with your cynicism. and some people with expensive systems have other priorities than interacting here, it's not for everyone for plenty of different reasons.

I find that very interesting and as a member of the Industry I was not really aware of Evolution and only a passing awareness of DartZeel beCAUSEse they were virtually invisible in the press or at shows accross the US. I became aquainted to them here on WBF and of course later in your home.
Was that something that those companies avoided or was it the function of they were not able to obtain press or reviews? Mike do you know why?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I find that very interesting and as a member of the Industry I was not really aware of Evolution and only a passing awareness of DartZeel beCAUSEse they were virtually invisible in the press or at shows accross the US. I became aquainted to them here on WBF and of course later in your home.
Was that something that those companies avoided or was it the function of they were not able to obtain press or reviews? Mike do you know why?

without getting too deep into this issue, the cases for those two brands have things in common, and differences too. obviously the things in common, were distribution by Jonathan Tinn, who was much more a networker than promoter, advertiser or brick and mortar dealer guy. and neither brand did the three year product cycle thing with new models coming consistently to serve a typical dealer network and keep attention going. so they stayed under the radar. Jonathan was not a big believer in review value, so did not push that maybe more related to his reluctance to advertise.

Evolution never had much name recognition at all; the designs were not super sexy to look at, but those who knew it respected it. and it was mostly North America only with a few exceptions. It was low profile, no factory or large overhead.

darTZeel had a higher profile, and was certainly international, but still not any sort of main stream brand, very Swiss. it made more inroads among tube lovers than solid state buyers. and was never any sort of member of the big dealer cartel. so you had to stumble upon it, it was not out shouting it's name or underfoot at every show. and as i mentioned, more known over the years for the red and gold, than the performance, maybe reflecting on buyer priorities. that did not help it's reputation.

the last 7-8 years in the USA Jonathan's health issues restricted HiFi show activity for both, which was also a recent factor. although for years he had been active at shows.

 

[microstrip]

without getting too deep into this issue, the cases for those two brands have things in common, and differences too. obviously the things in common, were distribution by Jonathan Tinn, who was much more a networker than promoter, advertiser or brick and mortar dealer guy. and neither brand did the three year product cycle thing with new models coming consistently to serve a typical dealer network and keep attention going. so they stayed under the radar. Jonathan was not a big believer in review value, so did not push that maybe more related to his reluctance to advertise.

Evolution never had much name recognition at all; the designs were not super sexy to look at, but those who knew it respected it. and it was mostly North America only with a few exceptions. It was low profile, no factory or large overhead.

darTZeel had a higher profile, and was certainly international, but still not any sort of main stream brand, very Swiss. it made more inroads among tube lovers than solid state buyers. and was never any sort of member of the big dealer cartel. so you had to stumble upon it, it was not out shouting it's name or underfoot at every show. and as i mentioned, more known over the years for the red and gold, than the performance, maybe reflecting on buyer priorities. that did not help it's reputation.

the last 7-8 years in the USA Jonathan's health issues restricted HiFi show activity for both, which was also a recent factor. although for years he had been active at shows.

IMO these brands wisely adapted their communication and marketing to their production capability. They are specialized small brands, highly artisanal in the good sense of the word, that did not want to grow. What is the point in creating high demand if it just lengths the waiting list?

As far as I see it, both brands icons are mostly their owners/designers - we do not learn about the Dartzeel or EA teams.

 

[andromedaaudio]

EA might be one of the best brands out there who knows at least certainly to some people.

My takeway from getting my self more involved into dealer shows / shows and some audiofile visits over the last couple of years
Is that high end conespeaker design and marketing go hand in hand unfortunately.
Leading to completely off base conclusions.

Amp designs as well , magazines might be good for reading entertainment but thats about it

 

[andromedaaudio]

Good thing about it .
Conclusion i dont need to spend another dime on audio gear

 

[andromedaaudio]

OK i ll make 1 more exception , Suspension of disbelief is buried here somewhere .

Acoustic sounds Ultra tape , i m still waiting for the US $$$ to drop some more versus the euro to buy the whole page / complete series

Reel To Reel|Acoustic Sounds

Acoustic Sounds Audiophile Vinyl Records

store.acousticsounds.com

 

[caesar]

The irony here is that your rants against the speakers that you subjectively do not like suggest it is you who lacks the fundamentals of the psychology of subjectivity.



"No one"? Speak for yourself -- don't project your personal views on to everyone else. Just because you do not understand it does not mean "no one" understands it.

I know what they mean by "natural sound," and so do many other people.

Hey Ron,
You're missing the point. Guys are rambling about "natural sound". Unless they sit together and listen and clearly define the terms, they will be rambling until the end of time.
Cheers

 

[Ron Resnick]

"I tend to think that speakers that are considered the best of the best (and with a commensurate price) should be able to suspend disbelief on some types of recordings." (emphasis added)

Dave McNair

Dave McNair is a music producer, a recording and mastering engineer and a professional guitar player.

 

[morricab]

"I tend to think that speakers that are considered the best of the best (and with a commensurate price) should be able to suspend disbelief on some types of recordings."

Dave McNair

Dave McNair is a music producer, a recording and mastering engineer and a professional guitar player.

I would agree with him...otherwise, what's the point?

 

[JackD201]

It's always great when you get fooled by a system. The brother of a friend had set up a small DIY sub/sat setup in their gazebo for a family gathering. A solo sax started playing and I looked around to find the saxophonist. It was his system. Cool. That wasn't suspension of disbelief was it? I think there is a difference between getting hoodwinked for a second and allowing yourself to sustain or suspend that moment.

To me that is purely internal and it requires a state of mind more than anything else. Using myself as an example, I can be totally psycho when hunting down noise and have gotten to the point where I now just need to have my system running at the right temperature. Yet, it is very easy for me to listen through something like 60Hz hum for as long as it is nearly inaudible when the stylus hits the track itself. That's an example of a provisor for me. Some things can jolt you out of that state. Digital guys will say ticks or pops ruin it for them. Other side of the coin is digital hardness. In any case there are levels at which distractions can be ignored and a system can help by simply having less of these distractions in the first place. We still need to be able to just let go and allow ourselves to be tricked though. Hopefully without need for medication LOL