American Sound AS-2000 Installations- Far East (Tango)

ddk

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100% likely but still probably different from where the wood has been sourced.
It’s all new wood of course the sound will be different from 60+ year old ones but nothing we can do about that. We were more concerned about warping given the climate in Bangkok hence the heavy stainless strapping to keep the panels flat and even if one section does warp it can easily be replaced without full disassembly. At the end of the day Siemens designed these speakers for commercial application which means easy field service, we designed the main structure with that in mind from stainless steel, it will never deform. We made exact templates for the panels and anytime he wishes they can easily be changed out for new ones even of different species or color to match a different environment in under an hour.

david
 
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howiebrou

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It’s all new wood of course the sound will be different from a 60+ year old ones but nothing we can do about that. We’re were more concerned about warping given the climate in Bangkok hence the heavy stainless strapping to keep the panels flat and even if one section does warp it can easily be replaced without full disassembly. At the end of the day Siemens designed these speakers for commercial application which means easy field service, we designed the main structure with that in mind from stainless steel, it will never deform. We made exact templates for the panels and anytime he wishes they can easily be changed out for new ones even of different species or color to match a different environment in under an hour.

david
Sounds like an incredibly well thought out construction with longevity built in.
 

ddk

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Sounds like an incredibly well thought out construction with longevity built in.
The Siemens are literally indestructible unless someone takes a hammer to them and for the baffle, in stainless we trust :)! The wood creates the character of the sound like all vintage speakers but it's also the most vulnerable element so I didn't want to go crazy with the veneers and finishes. I also know that at some point he might want to move them to his house and we should be able to match them to the lighter more modern or classical home environment locally. This approach has always been part of my designs including the AS2000!

david
 
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bonzo75

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It’s all new wood of course the sound will be different from 60+ year old ones but nothing we can do about that. We were more concerned about warping given the climate in Bangkok hence the heavy stainless strapping to keep the panels flat and even if one section does warp it can easily be replaced without full disassembly. At the end of the day Siemens designed these speakers for commercial application which means easy field service, we designed the main structure with that in mind from stainless steel, it will never deform. We made exact templates for the panels and anytime he wishes they can easily be changed out for new ones even of different species or color to match a different environment in under an hour.

david

Most vintage speakers benefit from their cabinets and crossovers being improved on especially those designed for commercial use in large theatres. It is the drivers that have the magic
 
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ddk

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Most vintage speakers benefit from their cabinets and crossovers being improved on especially those designed for commercial use in large theatres. It is the drivers that have the magic
If you’re talking about upper end vintage that has never been my experience in fact it’s been the opposite specially when it comes to the cabinets. I know the crossovers can be improved upon but I never found anyone who did right. Yes they used better parts and built cool looking boxes to house the new crossovers but IME none of them even came close to the sound of original. I love vintage speakers for their "natural" sound you lose that messing around with cabinets and crossovers. Vladimir was the only person I trusted to work on crossovers if they needed repairs.

david
 
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bonzo75

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If you’re talking about upper end vintage that has never been my experience in fact it’s been the opposite specially when it comes to the cabinets. I know the crossovers can be improved upon but I never found anyone who did right. Yes they used better parts and built cool looking box to house the new crossovers but IME none of them even came close to the original. I love vintage speakers for their "natural" sound you lose that messing around with cabinets and crossovers. Vladimir was the only I trusted to work on crossovers if they needed repairs.

david

Yes there are many who do it wrong given how many attempt it. It is just like a system. You visit many 95% get it awful but there are always those who have it stellar. And with things like Altecs and Tannoys given the volumes there are many sh*t ones there. But if you have a speaker made to address 100s of people in a big room where it takes some distance and reflections to get it coherent there is no way you are going to have the coherence at a short distance without modifications. And some crossovers were designed to first protect the drivers in big places at loud volumes, not a criteria for small rooms low watts
 

Walter66

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So much for the indestructable Klangfilm Woofer of the Eurodyn...if someone thinks old audio is indestructable, he misses experience on those gear. And often it needs an overhaul or at least service like any technical parts. Rust never sleeps, wear and tear is everywhere.
 

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ddk

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So much for the indestructable Klangfilm Woofer of the Eurodyn...if someone thinks old audio is indestructable, he misses experience on those gear. And often it needs an overhaul or at least service like any technical parts. Rust never sleeps, wear and tear is everywhere.
Did anyone claim that condition doesn’t matter or they never need refurbishing? You have to know what you’re buying!
david
PS. Can you tell with certainty that the damage you’re showing is the result of normal wear and tear and not mishandling? Which driver is in your picture?
 
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Audiophile Bill

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So much for the indestructable Klangfilm Woofer of the Eurodyn...if someone thinks old audio is indestructable, he misses experience on those gear. And often it needs an overhaul or at least service like any technical parts. Rust never sleeps, wear and tear is everywhere.

I don’t believe that people (well speaking for myself at the very least!) would incorrectly think this highly sought after vintage gear is indestructible - far from it! For example the power handling of almost all vintage woofers and compression drivers is much lower than any modern drivers. It would be quite easy to ruin a beautiful WE555 diaphragm with a high power modern amp for example. Anyone who knows anything about the basic anatomy of woofers will be acutely aware of the risk of debris getting in the gap let alone loss of flux density of the motor in fixed magnet drivers.

These things are largely revered due to their sonic performance (when operated correctly) that brings a perspective that makes one scratch one’s head about whether any proper advances have been made over the years in musical communication. I will happily stick my neck out and say I often scratch my head wondering what the current direction of travel is all about looking at super inefficient modern synthetic cone drivers requiring oodles of solid state power coupled to dsp based crossovers supposedly representing state of the art - in reality they sound nothing like music.
 

Walter66

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Did anyone claim that condition doesn’t matter or they never need refurbishing? You have to know what you’re buying!
david
PS. Can you tell with certainty that the damage you’re showing is the result of normal wear and tear and not mishandling? Which driver is in your picture?
Found KL406 that way. Don't know the history.
 
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ddk

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Found KL406 that way. Don't know the history.
You're making judgments based on a junked piece you found somewhere I've been dealing with vintage speakers and Klangfilms for 25 years. Of course you can destroy anything but top end vintage drivers and not just Siemens are almost perfect today as they were 50, 60, 70 years ago if they weren't mishandled or abused and need very little or no maintenance. Here's a 60's 406 from a theater in Frankfurt, doesn't look a day old, even the felt is in perfect condition.

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david
 

Audiophile Bill

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You're making judgments based on a junked piece you found somewhere I've been dealing with vintage speakers and Klangfilms for 25 years. Of course you can destroy anything but top end vintage drivers and not just Siemens are almost perfect today as they were 50, 60, 70 years ago if they weren't mishandled or abused and need very little or no maintenance. Here's a 60's 406 from a theater in Frankfurt, doesn't look a day old, even the felt is in perfect condition.

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david

I think Walter is trolling - there doesn’t seem to be any specific objective behind the posts.
 
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Walter66

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Dear David, you may be very lucky to find 70 year old audio gear in perfect conditions. You may have noticed, too, that the woofer you present is not as old as my woofer, it hasn't a hardpaper spider. Do you life in germany, or somewhere else in the world? I life in germany and I can tell you, not eveything has been stored and used under such perfect conditions. I've bought and found Klangfilm (not only speakers) that had a life and that looked as it had a life. And I'm doing this for hobby since four decades, long ago the internet. You don't know where we found such gear, sometimes for free and from the deposit container. That wasn't all the time in pristine condition, to be true. That equipment has been dumped away some two and more decades ago, and not being sold to internet dealers around the world. Maybe someone was clever and sold it to asians, but who knew that they were after this before the internet? Nearly no one. And no one wanted it to use forever, so it was thrown in the garbage or sold cheap. I've thrown things in the garbage or sold for cheap money that today bring big money, such is life. But to expect everything old to be found in like new condition isn't the reality and you know that. Just look at other internet audio dealers what kind of condition their used equipment is and anybody can know it better. Easy as that.
I knew this forum a little longer but I joined yesterday- so what? And I do post here. Does this means I'm trolling? If so, then delete my account, no problem. Than you can tell your stories of the perfect condition used gear that is more than half a century old to others who beliefe it. I don't buy it, sorry.
 
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Walter66

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Looks that way, just joined the forum yesterday.

david
Because you think I'm trolling a forum, there is a link to this forum to be actually found on another german audio forum, and thats the reason I now post here. But if you think that such users should be banned from this forum, just go on. No problem.
 
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Walter66

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I think Walter is trolling - there doesn’t seem to be any specific objective behind the posts.
No specific objective of my postings? Are you from the "Thought Police" like in Orwells 1984? Any one without the correct spirit seem to be false, but your spirit is the right one? You judge someone who you simply don't know, and because you have too little information about my person, you judge on the basis of three posts of an unknown individual. Thats ridiculous. But go on, make yourself a picture about any new member here on the basis of a few posts. Do you know what that is called? Prejudice.
My goal here is communication about a theme I love. Isn't that enough for a forum? Then I'm simply being wrong on the topic of what forums are about. Forgive me, please.
 
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PeterA

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So much for the indestructable Klangfilm Woofer of the Eurodyn...if someone thinks old audio is indestructable, he misses experience on those gear. And often it needs an overhaul or at least service like any technical parts. Rust never sleeps, wear and tear is everywhere.

Well, I agree rust never sleeps, and that wear and tear can be an issue, but they are not everywhere. One must be careful about the condition of anything old, not only audio components. David recently found me a near mint condition Micro Seiki SX 8000 II turntable that was basically new. It was an extremely complete example with unopened original belts and accessories. He also sold me a pair of very early Vitavox CH-191 speakers from the early 1960's that he inspected, tested, and found to be in excellent condition. They could go into a museum based on their condition and rarity. He then gave me a NOS Ortofon cartridge from the 60s, in unopened/new condition. It sounds superb. All of these items were offered to me with a 100% return policy for life. There may be some luck involved, but I think there is more to it. One has to know how to find these and have trustworthy sources. These very rare and coveted items do exist, they can be found, and they still work and sound incredible.

Tang has vintage cartridges that sound glorious, based on his videos. Up thread is a video of his new speakers that are vintage and look and sound to be in excellent condition, almost new. This is possible. It just takes knowledge, effort and patience, and yes, I suppose some luck.
 
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Solypsa

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My goal here is communication about a theme I love.
Walter,

I suspect you are communicating the struggle, how hard one must search and how much one must know, in order to deal with these vintage theater rarities. At first read your initial posts did seem to me to be a bit negative, however now that you have written more I am starting to reconsider.

Perhaps post a story or two about some of your victories within this 'theme you love'? Positive experience is much more the style here in my opinion.
 

Walter66

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Solypsa, thanks for your kind reply.
The struggle for quality sound reproduction with old components is very hard and no one I know has achieved this easily. Its not like you just put a deep wallet out and go to your audio dealer to purchase a system that fits the individual needs, let it install at home and have that angel like sound. I know, after some decades experience, that its possible to have such a thing like high end audio nirvana with those components, but for many those achievements for a complete old audio system are too much struggle. You need to have extreme energy and being driven to strive towards that goal. And you need a special musical mindset that wants exactly that kind of sound. Asians seem to have a different mindset, compared to europeans and when that comes together with the drive and force and the financial backing, it could be achieved. But money spending alone, I mean stupid money spending on the big brands of the ancient audio times isn't enough. One will end still with a mediocre sounding system, don't know how to setup correctly. I mean, were talking about a science, that had its profound knowledge base even in the early ages of the 20th century and still the audio amateur of today hasn't all the knowledge that is necessary to setup big cinema systems like Western Electric or Klangfilm. They aren't plug and play and even todays system aren't plug and play but many think they are. To get the best results out of a given system needs experience in setup, in acoustics and in electronics. I had the favour to study on that field, but never had I thought to end up with cinema audio components. Because I never had a chance to audition them in an excellent setup. When I had the chance, some decades ago and after a long struggle with modern audio, I was lost forever for the modern audio market and took a deep dive into the backwards train.
And then I learned, how hard it is to bring those old dinosaurs into the modern world and to DIY speakers, amps, sources of music that compare to those standards we once had in the pro- and studio branch before mass audio and its cheap production methods led to the downgrade in quality we see today. That doesn't mean that modern components don't have their own intrinsic qualities of audio reproduction. But they lost in almost any cases the ability of credibility of the reproduced sound. They often just sound harsh to me, with overpronounced highs and too much on the detail side without the ability to integrate.
What we hear with such a Klangfilm speaker is, that even the choice of wood is clearly audible. But that leads to the question, should a speaker as a reproducer allow the cabinet to alter the sound or not? Modern theory says its the complete wrong way, they strive towards less resonance on the cabinet walls. A cabinet with zero resonance means less distortion of the speaker system, thats the way to go. Ask in any modern audio forum the community, what are the goals in speaker design and the majority will tell less distortion of the cabinet. And with the Klangfilm we see, maybe there is another way to achieve good sound. Maybe the cabinet can be treated and designed like a good instrument, with a controlled resonance. And with minimum damping or no damping inside at all. To kill all backwards energy that every speaker radiates into the cab is the modern way to minimize the distortion of the cabinet. Why not work with this energy, use it like in an instrument to promote the sound of the driver, make it more colorfull sounding? Thats exactly what we hear with this Klangfilm baffle, it promotes the drivers to sound best. Anybody know what kind of wood is being used for that purpose best?
Thats the fundamental problems with old audio systems, we have lost the knowledge on how and why they sounded that excellent decades ago the word audio was invented.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Dear David, you may be very lucky to find 70 year old audio gear in perfect conditions. You may have noticed, too, that the woofer you present is not as old as my woofer, it hasn't a hardpaper spider. Do you life in germany, or somewhere else in the world? I life in germany and I can tell you, not eveything has been stored and used under such perfect conditions. I've bought and found Klangfilm (not only speakers) that had a life and that looked as it had a life. And I'm doing this for hobby since four decades, long ago the internet. You don't know where we found such gear, sometimes for free and from the deposit container. That wasn't all the time in pristine condition, to be true. That equipment has been dumped away some two and more decades ago, and not being sold to internet dealers around the world. Maybe someone was clever and sold it to asians, but who knew that they were after this before the internet? Nearly no one. And no one wanted it to use forever, so it was thrown in the garbage or sold cheap. I've thrown things in the garbage or sold for cheap money that today bring big money, such is life. But to expect everything old to be found in like new condition isn't the reality and you know that. Just look at other internet audio dealers what kind of condition their used equipment is and anybody can know it better. Easy as that.
I knew this forum a little longer but I joined yesterday- so what? And I do post here. Does this means I'm trolling? If so, then delete my account, no problem. Than you can tell your stories of the perfect condition used gear that is more than half a century old to others who beliefe it. I don't buy it, sorry.
Yes vintage audio is very tricky and of course after all these years there's more junk than nice pieces around. I've learnt my lessons the real way, by losing money but with patience , knowledge and some luck we still find beautiful vintage here and there. I live in the US now but have traveled everywhere for vintage pieces. This is where my heart's at.

Because you think I'm trolling a forum, there is a link to this forum to be actually found on another german audio forum, and thats the reason I now post here. But if you think that such users should be banned from this forum, just go on. No problem.
Maybe I misunderstood you Walter but like @Solypsa mentioned some of your posts gave that impression.

david
 

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