Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[stehno]

You mean would I take the saxophonist/Youtube playback via my phone over your playback of Way Out West (wav) in your listening room. The answer is a resounding yes!

You've been in my listening room?

Thanks for the reminder. Yes, possessing at least some reasonable ability to discern / interpret what we hear is also a requirement. Otherwise, we as an industry are lost i.e. all over the map.

BTW, if you're gonna' type-cast me and/or my playback presentation please don't do it with that POS piece you keep referencing. At least give me another chance.

 

[morricab]

Okay - your reference for assessing an audio system is a digital file played through headphones. Are you inclined to have that as your primary approach for reproducing music?

Are you just trying to take the piss Tim? I have stated many, many, many times my reference for assessing an audio system is live, unamplified music. Please see the video I posted of my ex playing Paganini to get an idea of the level I am talking about.

I am talking about YouTube videos of systems vs. a music file through YouTube to get an idea of what a system, through YouTube, is doing right or wrong relative to the file…through YouTube. This has nothing to do with my approach to assessing systems live or how I build my system.

 

[Rensselaer]

Looking at your digital playback system I understand why you might feel threatened enough by what I wrote to write this.

I didn’t mean to denigrate your equipment, just point out that you do not list a turntable, reel-to-reel or any other analogue equipment in your system. Your‘s is completely digital and that is why I thought you were defending digital when You said I was saying analogue good, digital bad.

You wrote that after I said, in response to the question is telephone-recorded videos of any use for evaluating different systems, that I said (amongst other reasons I think they are useful) that to improve the usefulness, I limit my listening to videos of systems playing analogue music only (the digital conversion in the phone is enough), that I think digital music sounds unnatural to me, that I don’t have digital in my main system. The point I was trying to make was that I am trying to remove as many variables as possible as I believe they confound the usefulness of listening to such. If you said that you will only listen to videos of equipment playing digitally-sourced music, I would agree that makes sense (in so far as evaluating differences with telephone-recorded videos).

 

[Argonaut]

I was thinking something a bit more along these lines...

You might well be right about that … Low Hanging Fruit and all !

 

[tima]

Are you just trying to take the piss Tim? I have stated many, many, many times my reference for assessing an audio system is live, unamplified music. Please see the video I posted of my ex playing Paganini to get an idea of the level I am talking about.

I am talking about YouTube videos of systems vs. a music file through YouTube to get an idea of what a system, through YouTube, is doing right or wrong relative to the file…through YouTube. This has nothing to do with my approach to assessing systems live or how I build my system.

I'm not meaning to misinterpret you. And yes from years I believed your reference has been live acoustic music, but I was confused by your earlier message. And my question intended to draw you out, not piss you off.

Whether playing a ripped LP or an originally digital file is more representative is debatable but either will give a good idea of what the system should sound like. Comparison will allow one to hear where one’s system deviates from that recording. That is a relatively objective approach to determining fidelity of a system.

So in the above paragraph you are describing comparing one's stereo system to a digital file played through you tube to gauge the fidelity of your stereo system to that you tube video. But that has nothing to do with assessing one stereo system with another. Do I have your intent correctly? If not, please say.

Your second paragraph in the first quote clarified things for me. I think ...

Do you believe that your in-room stereo system playing the same music as was on that digital file could sound more realistic than the digital file played through you tube?

 

[Rensselaer]

No, no, no; don't give up.

No matter what you do, there will always be legitimate technical and practical criticisms. The crows will peck at you from above. That's totally fine; that is the nature of crows. You can cheerfully ignore them.

If you choose to standardize to a particular microphone and a particular protocol, you have to draw relatively arbitrary lines somewhere. I have drawn the line with an external microphone which does not have to be plugged directly into the iPhone, and which I can EQ to achieve greater representativeness of the tonal balance I hein the room.

I have adopted a simple external mic, which does not require phantom power, and a tripod and a mounting set-up which is quite portable, and I have drawn the line against a full-size studio microphone and phantom power and multiple microphones and a dedicated video camera and other possible complications in size, power and complexity.

My set-up is now fixed. I am confident it is superior to the internal iPhone mic, and I am happy with its sound and with its portability.

PS: The only annoying part of this process has been ordering and playing with half a dozen different adapters and thingamajigs to connect in a sturdy way my Benro tripod to my iPhone, with a mount for the microphone.

IMHO, the usefulness of YouTube videos made with unadulterated iPhone or Android phone of equipment playing music, whether from home or show , is that you can evaluate a fairly level playing field. I personally take it one step further by only listening to equipment that is playing analogue LPs through valves as that is what I own and wish to compare.

To build a recording system using external microphones and other to achieve better sound sort of defeats the purpose. It no longer compares like for like, no longer useful (unless used solely to monitor before and after changes in that particular system).

 

[Rensselaer]

With all due respect, haven’t you been doing exactly that repeatedly in practically every one of your posts? That is, to paraphrase, “Vinyl=Good, Digital=Bad”

No it isn’t, but I should have added “whether digital or analogue, as long as it demonstrates those properties which show off the equipment best” at the end of my paragraph on equipment audiophiles. My fault for not rereading this one before pressing send.

 

[hopkins]

To build a recording system using external microphones and other to achieve better sound sort of defeats the purpose.

People here and elsewhere are building and tuning their systems based on in-room listening. Anything else would indeed be preposterous.

Some also use measurement microphones, but that is an entirely different topic.

So I don't understand what you mean in the above quote. Can you elaborate ?

 

[Rensselaer]

People here and elsewhere are building and tuning their systems based on in-room listening. Anything else would indeed be preposterous.

Some also use measurement microphones, but that is an entirely different topic.

So I don't understand what you mean in the above quote. Can you elaborate ?

Responding to Ron’s set up.

 

[hopkins]

Responding to Ron’s set up.

Meaning?

 

[Rensselaer]

Meaning?

Ron started this thread questioning the usefulness of recording one’s own system playing an LP of a particular track on your iPhone, and then comparing that iPhone recording with a high Def. digital rendition of that very same track off Qobuz for the purpose of evaluating one’s own system? (I agree, how could that make any sense?).

In post #2, bonzo suggested mobile phone recordings of systems could be helpful in other ways.

In post #3, Peter A suggested taking mobile phone recordings of yours and other systems that you have heard (and presumably like) playing the same song for comparison / help in making improvements.

In post #9, Audiophile Bill asked if it was mere coincidence that the best systems at Munich 2019 sounded best of the iPhone recordings at the show.

In post #4, bonzo argues that “the reason I prefer to stick to phones (only) it it keeps consistency. Adding in a good recorder (or microphone) will add another complication.”

After much discussion which diverts from the original post greatly, Ron writes in post #1,816, that he has settled with an external microphone on his iPhone, mounted on a stiff tripod, but not using external mic power supplies.

My point to Ron was from what bonzo said in post #4, thinking Ron has read all and considered each point, that he would realise that using an external microphone to record his system and then comparing his vids with vids recorded without an external microphone, advantages his system every time so is of no use in making comparisons.

 

[hopkins]

Ok, I had not understood the sentence "to build a recording system using external microphones and other to achieve better sound".

Personally, I prefer recording with better microphones, and I wish everyone did. It's not a competition, it is simply a question of getting a better understanding of a system's performance, in the same way that don't judge an album's recording quality by listening to it on a small Bluetooth portable speaker or cheap ear buds.

But all this has been discussed before as well.

 

[Rensselaer]

Ok, I had not understood the sentence "to build a recording system using external microphones and other to achieve better sound".

Personally, I prefer recording with better microphones, and I wish everyone did. It's not a competition, it is simply a question of getting a better understanding of a system's performance. But all this has been discussed before as well.

Perhaps you might understand the title of the thread:

Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings​

 

[hopkins]

Perhaps you might understand the title of the thread:

Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings​

Acoustically coupled to what? The video ? The room? Is a build-in microphone less "acoustically coupled" then a usb microphone ? How exactly ? Regardless, I don't see how the title gives any indication of limits to the recording quality. And why exactly would you care whether higher quality recordings are used ?

But If a separate thread is needed, one in which you probably won't need to participate in, then why not?

 

[Rensselaer]

Acoustically coupled to what? The video ? The room? Is a build-in microphone less "acoustically coupled" then a usb microphone ? How exactly ? Regardless, I don't see how the title gives any indication of limits to the recording quality. And why exactly would you care whether higher quality recordings are used ?

But If a separate thread is needed, one in which you probably won't need to participate in, then why not?

Get a life!

 

[hopkins]

Get a life!

You have stated that you are not interested in anything else than iPhone recordings, and that we should not include anything else here, so if other recordings are to be shown, in another thread, you should be happy, and we can both carry on.

If I enjoy sharing my videos, and enjoy seeing others' (as well as discussing the merits of various microphones), but this makes you unhappy, then this is the solution.

 

[Rensselaer]

You have stated that you are not interested in anything else than iPhone recordings, and that we should not include anything else here, so if other recordings are to be shown, in another thread, you should be happy, and we can both carry on.

If I enjoy sharing my videos, and enjoy seeing others' (as well as discussing the merits of various microphones), but this makes you unhappy, then this is the solution.

I apologise for my last comment, I let the attacks get to me.

Let me try again from a different direction. I changed my speakers from Thrax Lyra's to Altec A7's (costing a fraction of the Thrax, but hopefully giving me the sound I was looking for). I wanted to record the sound from each early on to make sure it was a good idea. I had previously opened a YouTube channel and, using my iPhone 8 without external microphones or other enhancements, recorded the first movement of Scheherazade (LSC-2446, RCA Living Stereo) playing through the Thrax Lyra's . I then recorded my system playing that same first movement of Scheherazade through the Altec's (

) and compared the two video's on YouTube. I did not hear the improvement I had expected (a bit harsh sounding), but thought I could make improvements to the Altec's and get the improvement I was looking for.

At first it was the crossover's. I purchased a pair of Hiraga-style crossovers built by Pete Riggle in Washington State using large NOS oil-filled caps and recorded Scheherazade again, same phone, no external microphone, after the change in crossovers (

. Sound much improved, harshness gone but quieter and with resonances I did not like. I added reinforcements to the inside of the bass cabinet, 1"x 2" beams glued and screwed to the insides in irregular patterns so as not to form standing waves, added wool felt between and over those and onto the inside of a new back panel, I also changed the metal treble horn for a wooden exponential horn (two rows of five cells) built by Markus Klug in Germany and added in the super tweeters allowable with Pete's crossovers resulting in this

. Then, to match the Alnico magnet woofer (Altec 416-8B) with Alnico behind the treble horn, I changed the ferrite compression drivers (Altec 902-8B) for new Altec 802-8G series II compression drivers. I also purchased some super tweeters which Pete Riggle's crossovers handle, but not sure adding a third speaker helps. This next video is without, but with the new compression drivers, the volume of the new speakers needs tweeking

. This shows how incremental A/B changes can be monitored and used to guide further changes.

What else is interesting is to look at video's made at the hi-fi show and compare them with your own system video's. In my case, as I already explained, I prefer to compare only show video's playing records (and there is no guarantee those weren't cut from digital masters) to limit confounding factors. I am not saying you must restrict yourself to only digital systems, whatever floats your boat.

This explains my use of iPhone 8 mobile phone videos, and hopefully reveals why improving the sound quality of those home videos with external microphones etc., would make it impossible to compare yours with hi fi show videos in any meaningful way. Hence, my comment to Ron.

 

[microstrip]

Acoustically coupled to what? The video ? The room? Is a build-in microphone less "acoustically coupled" then a usb microphone ? How exactly ? Regardless, I don't see how the title gives any indication of limits to the recording quality. And why exactly would you care whether higher quality recordings are used ?

But If a separate thread is needed, one in which you probably won't need to participate in, then why not?

Excellent question. The main problem is that people do not know the basic mechanisms of what they are recording, focusing on the accessory. And everyone wants videos for a different purpose - some for pure enjoyment and sharing, others for evaluating and ranking systems, others to help on set up, others just to denigrate some particular systems.

IMO videos taken is the similar conditions could be of use if people take a common training to interpret them, involving everyone listening to the same systems and debating the videos. However we should remember that training educates our preferences and every audiophile (or small group of audiophiles) wants to be an independent leader in these matters.

 

[PeterA]

I apologise for my last comment, I let the attacks get to me.

Let me try again from a different direction. I changed my speakers from Thrax Lyra's to Altec A7's (costing a fraction of the Thrax, but hopefully giving me the sound I was looking for). I wanted to record the sound from each early on to make sure it was a good idea. I had previously opened a YouTube channel and, using my iPhone 8 without external microphones or other enhancements, recorded the first movement of Scheherazade (LSC-2446, RCA Living Stereo) playing through the Thrax Lyra's . I then recorded my system playing that same first movement of Scheherazade through the Altec's (

) and compared the two video's on YouTube. I did not hear the improvement I had expected (a bit harsh sounding), but thought I could make improvements to the Altec's and get the improvement I was looking for.

At first it was the crossover's. I purchased a pair of Hiraga-style crossovers built by Pete Riggle in Washington State using large NOS oil-filled caps and recorded Scheherazade again, same phone, no external microphone, after the change in crossovers (

. Sound much improved, harshness gone but quieter and with resonances I did not like. I added reinforcements to the inside of the bass cabinet, 1"x 2" beams glued and screwed to the insides in irregular patterns so as not to form standing waves, added wool felt between and over those and onto the inside of a new back panel, I also changed the metal treble horn for a wooden exponential horn (two rows of five cells) built by Markus Klug in Germany and added in the super tweeters allowable with Pete's crossovers resulting in this

. Then, to match the Alnico magnet woofer (Altec 416-8B) with Alnico behind the treble horn, I changed the ferrite compression drivers (Altec 902-8B) for new Altec 802-8G series II compression drivers. I also purchased some super tweeters which Pete Riggle's crossovers handle, but not sure adding a third speaker helps. This next video is without, but with the new compression drivers, the volume of the new speakers needs tweeking

. This shows how incremental A/B changes can be monitored and used to guide further changes.

What else is interesting is to look at video's made at the hi-fi show and compare them with your own system video's. In my case, as I already explained, I prefer to compare only show video's playing records (and there is no guarantee those weren't cut from digital masters) to limit confounding factors. I am not saying you must restrict yourself to only digital systems, whatever floats your boat.

This explains my use of iPhone 8 mobile phone videos, and hopefully reveals why improving the sound quality of those home videos with external microphones etc., would make it impossible to compare yours with hi fi show videos in any meaningful way. Hence, my comment to Ron.

Nice post Mark. It is an interesting documentation of the changes to your speakers. Which video is your favorite?

 

[Rensselaer]

Nice post Mark. It is an interesting documentation of the changes to your speakers. Which video is your favorite?

I’ve yet to make it.

I have turned up the volume on the 802-8G compression drivers to 75% and not used the super tweeters, I need to record that and add it to my collection. It is lovely for most, but I am still hearing a bit of smearing in upper bass. I don’t know if I have maxed what is possible with the Altec’s, inserted too much wool felt, if the Ayon Spitfire 30 watt matter-of-fact presentation is at fault or if my Phasemation PP-2000 MC should be swapped for Koetsu. I can record Sachmo King Oliver so you can compare it with your copy played on your system to see if you can spot the issue, if any?