Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[tima]

How "realistic" can a system ever be anyway? We can only be fooled into thinking it is.

I did not say "realistic" is a product of one's imagination.

Then please, use however you account for being fooled.

You asked this question and I gave you an answer.

What is it that really distinguishes some of these systems? Dynamics, resolution, frequency response, etc...

What you hear using them to listen to music distinquishes them.

No one else gave you an answer.

You seemed to dismiss realism and wanted to talk about 'objective assessment.' I asked what does that mean, how will you do that, what are your standards. Now you are deflecting and feigning offense. I thought you wanted to talk about objective assessment? I don't know what "answer" you're after -- is it simply more talk about videos?

 

[bonzo75]

I was responding to Rex‘s comment the David is a typical dealer denigrating other peoples equipment. When I say he did not denigrate my gear, it is implicit that he did not denigrate my gear to me to make some sale in the context of what Rex was promoting. My experience with David is completely different. He is not like the typical dealer in my experience, far from it.

When asked, he shares his opinions about the quality of gear based on his experience. He does this candidly and honestly. And with me, he did it only when I asked him about specific components or brands.

Perhaps David’s critics should try to find all of his dissatisfied customers out there who could share horror stories about David’s services and level of professionalism. Ask Steve Williams about how David flew to California to set up a turntable he bought from a different dealer, all the times he went out there to set up cartridges and adjust things, and improve his room acoustics. Ask Tang about the service he received with cartridges where they were all tested before being shipped to Bangkok and immediately replaced when there was an issue.

It is easy to attack someone who can’t defend himself because he’s been shut out of the conversation. Where are all the dissatisfied customers?

Sorry no one is attacking him, nor is David shut out. Please don't change things on the argument. It is very clear what David does not like, and what he says is bad. It is impossible to be his client not knowing he does not like Monaco, Magico, streamer dac, and many other things. The fact that you do not call it denigration is fine, but I think he is not going to like 95% of the stuff and think it's sh*t so that is very common knowledge.

In my message that is quoted, do you disagree with David's views that I have mentioned on any of the items? I am sure he is reading this so you can ask him

 

[tima]

I am sure he is reading this so you can ask him

I can assure you he isn't. He's done with this forum.

 

[hopkins]

Then please, use however you account for being fooled.

You asked this question and I gave you an answer.




No one else gave you an answer.

You seemed to dismiss realism and wanted to talk about 'objective assessment.' I asked what does that mean, how will you do that, what are your standards. Now you are deflecting and feigning offense. I thought you wanted to talk about objective assessment? I don't know what "answer" you're after -- is it simply more talk about videos?

Yes, stating that the sound is "realistic" would imply that we are being fooled - as you have so much expertise in the subject you should know the difference between reproduction and live music?

That does not mean that "realism" (however imperfect) is a product of our imagination - I don't doubt that you could find a system more realistic than another, all I am suggesting is that we don't stop at that statement and try to explain why, and give our honest appraisal of the limitations as well (hence the term "objective").

As for the rest, I think I was clear, and it is only a suggestion, you are free to carry on without taking it into account.

 

[bonzo75]

I can assure you he isn't. He's done with this forum.

Do you or Peter disagree with what I have quoted about what he thinks of those components? Some of that is available on the forum itself.

 

[bonzo75]

It's very simple, when you call over someone who is in the trade over to your place, you are willing to change and already know his background. You are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. If you call a Wadax dealer over, you are already half expecting to move from your digital. Whetherhe tells you yours sucks or not is moot. If you call someone in the trade you know is strongly against the things you own, it is just a question of then whether you buy his philosophy or not.

 

[tima]

Do you or Peter disagree with what I have quoted about what he thinks of those components? Some of that is available on the forum itself.

Maybe he does not care for the Monaco but I've never heard him say that. Maybe he said it to you? We did talk about it in a thread here some time back but it was in terms of there being more to turntable design than a stable speed and quiet. To my knowledge he has not heard it.

He will give his opinion when asked but he doesn't tend to attack other gear out of nowhere. If he is provoked he will respond. He has strong opinions on Ching-Chang with Lamm. And he is absolutely right about that from my experience. I tried a couple with my M1.2s, changing out from some expensive Shunyata and with Lamm the positive differences were immediate.

 

[bonzo75]

Maybe he does not care for the Monaco but I've never heard him say that. Maybe he said it to you?

Yes he did, and I agree with what he said.

That aside, there are some things which are obvious. If I owned Monaco, Technics, NVS - I do not need to ask David what he thinks of them. As a neutral party who did not know before, it's a completely different thing to ask and get someone's perspective.

 

[Argonaut]

It is very clear what David does not like

To Graciously Acquiesce To Reasonable Moderation , it would seem

 

[bonzo75]

To Graciously Acquiesce To Reasonable Moderation , it would seem

Let's keep such talk out please it does not help the discussion - I am referring to his view on components

 

[tima]

all I am suggesting is that we don't stop at that statement and try to explain why, and give our honest appraisal of the limitations as well (hence the term "objective").

For some 'realism' is a synonym for 'natural sound.' For some, saying 'that system sounds natural' is all that needs be said - it covers everything. Others say that term is too broad and needs unpacking. We have had several long threads on the topic. You've been here less than a year so those discussions are before you arrived and you may not know the history.

Here is one example from one person:

Natural Sound

I contacted David Karmeli two years ago to discuss what he referred to as Natural Sound. Thus began a series of experiments that resulted over the last two months in the complete replacement of my SME/Pass Labs/Magico based audio system. That system was the context around which I wrote my...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Honest appraisals are fine but ultimately just opinion. I would not attach 'objective' to them. (I consider objective truth something independent of my belief or opinion.) If someone can cite from where his opinion derives - that is, what are his standards, what references does he use, what methods of assessment does he apply -- then that is at least more rigorous, possibly consistent and possibly can be replicated.

 

[tima]

That aside, there are some things which are obvious. If I owned Monaco, Technics, NVS - I do not need to ask David what he thinks of them. As a neutral party who did not know before, it's a completely different thing to ask and get someone's perspective.

Going back - this all came up out of response to kingrex who had some strong remarks about David. There are several members who make such comments about David because they disagree with his politics and they are very politically minded. I won't name names here but criticism of him is over laid with that in many cases.

 

[PeterA]

Sorry no one is attacking him, nor is David shut out. Please don't change things on the argument. It is very clear what David does not like, and what he says is bad. It is impossible to be his client not knowing he does not like Monaco, Magico, streamer dac, and many other things. The fact that you do not call it denigration is fine, but I think he is not going to like 95% of the stuff and think it's sh*t so that is very common knowledge.

In my message that is quoted, do you disagree with David's views that I have mentioned on any of the items? I am sure he is reading this so you can ask him

David is not reading this forum. I suggested it to him and he said no.

apparently my experience with him is different from yours. He only shared negative comments about something when I have directly asked him for his opinion. This is very different from other dealers I have met at their dealerships. Some denigrate competitors without solicitation. Just to pump up the stuff they are selling. This is what I was pushing back on Rex about because that is the implication I got from his post.

 

[bonzo75]

David is not reading this forum. I suggested it to him and he said no.

apparently my experience with him is different from yours. He only shared negative comments about something when I have directly asked him for his opinion. This is very different from other dealers I have met at their dealerships. Psalm denigrate competitors without solicitation. Just to pump up the stuff they are selling. This is what I was pushing back on Rex about because that is the implication I got from his post.

Sorry Peter, I don't for a second believe someone who has read David's posts regularly plus has chatted with him does not know what he thinks of the systems and components I mentioned.

 

[Ron Resnick]

At least he was honest in his assessment.

Read well my Post #1,649, especially Section 6.

It is dishonest of you to latch onto, and to repeat, Peter's mischaracterizations when I am telling you the facts.

 

[Ron Resnick]

For myself I knew Wilson was not where I would end up so criticism did not bother me. The question was where to go.

Why did it take you years, if not decades, to realize that modest-sized Wilson speakers were not musically convincing? If you claim now that you were on a quest why didn't you explore actively other speakers and other speaker topologies yourself?

Why did you need David to lead you by the hand?

PS: I do give you credit for arriving at Lamm on your own.

 

[Argonaut]

Let's keep such talk out please it does not help the discussion - I am referring to his view on components

Whilst I am not … And yours has more relevance to the thread OP ?

 

[hopkins]

For some 'realism' is a synonym for 'natural sound.' For some, saying 'that system sounds natural' is all that needs be said - it covers everything. Others say that term is too broad and needs unpacking. We have had several long threads on the topic. You've been here less than a year so those discussions are before you arrived and you may not know the history.

Here is one example from one person:

Natural Sound

I contacted David Karmeli two years ago to discuss what he referred to as Natural Sound. Thus began a series of experiments that resulted over the last two months in the complete replacement of my SME/Pass Labs/Magico based audio system. That system was the context around which I wrote my...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Honest appraisals are fine but ultimately just opinion. I would not attach 'objective' to them. (I consider objective truth something independent of my belief or opinion.) If someone can cite from where his opinion derives - that is, what are his standards, what references does he use, what methods of assessment does he apply -- then that is at least more rigorous, possibly consistent and possibly can be replicated.

I actually read that thread, and as explained previously, I can understand where it is coming from.

Once again, "objective" does not mean that it is not an opinion - obviously it is (didn't I mention that I was not equating this to measurements?) - it is more a question of attitude: giving an honest appraisal of the strengths and weaknesses.

Saying that "a system sounds natural" does not cover everything - it just means that what it does right to your ears is more important that what it does not do right - unless you have had the exceptional opportunity to listen to a perfect system, and then by all means, tell us! Judging by the fact that most of us are endlessly tweaking our systems and rooms, I doubt anyone here has found the holy grail.

 

[bonzo75]

Here is one example from one person:

Natural Sound

I contacted David Karmeli two years ago to discuss what he referred to as Natural Sound. Thus began a series of experiments that resulted over the last two months in the complete replacement of my SME/Pass Labs/Magico based audio system. That system was the context around which I wrote my...

www.whatsbestforum.com

Honest appraisals are fine but ultimately just opinion. I would not attach 'objective' to them. (I consider objective truth something independent of my belief or opinion.) If someone can cite from where his opinion derives - that is, what are his standards, what references does he use, what methods of assessment does he apply -- then that is at least more rigorous, possibly consistent and possibly can be replicated.

One way to get someone to participate less on this thread is to direct them to that one - all the best to Hopkins navigating through it.

 

[Rensselaer]

Is it a mere coincidence that the best systems at Munich 2019 (according to most people) sounded best on their respective iPhone videos? Is it a mere coincidence that Kedar’s videos of an actual live classical performance sounds real and definitely not a hifi? Does one hear a video sounding crap yet everyone there said it was fantastic?

The answers to these questions should give us a hint that vids can be useful tools for the purposes of evaluation. Be all and end all, no.

Reconsidering the OP, I really appreciate Audiophile Bill's insight above. We must ignore obvious imprecise associations (Bill is asserting that he can tell that Kedar's video was of a live event and not a recorded event, despite the video being made on a mobile phone, despite all the limitations implied and discussed herein).

Despite my being on the autistic spectrum, I can still tell if someone I am speaking to is angry, sad or happy. Likewise, I can perceive such over the phone, despite the lack of facial clues and lower acoustic fidelity associated with a telephone call, it is just a bit more difficult.

Our minds are powerful tools that do this automatically. We are not born with innate language capabilities but gather comprehension and competence by interpreting uttered noises and associated gestures by those around us. Why should this fantastic skill suddenly stop as we get older?

Kedar I believe, in a different thread, demonstrated how a single piece of music sounded when played back from an iPhone recording and then same again from an Android phone recording. What I learned from that demonstration that my iPhone will not show my system off as well as an Android phone would, but that is my take, others may differ. When I listen to telephone videos of music being played from different equipment on this and other sites, I try to remove as many confounding variables as possible.

At home, I prefer to listen to vinyl through SET's and old-school horn speakers so that when I listen to telephone recordings I look out for those of the same (that is what I like and want to compare my system to). I do not listen to those playing electronic instruments, rock etc. as with all the distortion added (EL34's pushed to distortion in Marshall amplifiers, fuzz tones, wah-wah etc. ) as I can not tell how "natural" it sounds. Same CD sourced (they always sound unnatural to me). Instead I listen only to systems playing a vinyl recording of acoustic instruments and from those make my judgements.