Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[PeterA]

DDK was a salesman and like many I meet are all to happy to shit on your gear and claim theirs king of the pile. I would not put that in the same category as a friendly fellow audiophile not wanting to hurt someone's feelings.

David is a dealer, but he never tried to sell me anything. He never denigrated any of my equipment. I guess my experience is just completely different from yours. Didn’t you contact him many times for advice? Did he ever try to sell you anything?

 

[Rexp]

@sonrock recorded this with an Apogee MiC Plus/iphone, sounds great, perhaps he will post a system video with and without the MiC Plus?

 

[Kingrex]

David is a dealer, but he never tried to sell me anything. He never denigrated any of my equipment. I guess my experience is just completely different from yours. Didn’t you contact him many times for advice? Did he ever try to sell you anything?

David's online presence was abrasive and hard. If it wasn't his equipment, it was crap. Down to the ching cheng power cord.

He never had time to have me visit his showroom either. Maybe becaue I did not have a wallet to pour money towards him. I only wanted to hear what he preached.

 

[stehno]

Stehno, This is a popular song often used to demonstrate audio systems, though I have not heard it for a while. I took your video advice and turned the speakers all the way up, as loud as I could, same with my headphones, to crank this recording to your recommended volume level to be sure to hear it as you intend. I could not listen for long at this level, so I turned it down a bit, but still loud. At this level, I hear a hissing sound, like noise floor, or tape hiss. It is distracting but different from vinyl noise. I think you play digital which in theory should be silent or certainly quiet. What is this noise and do you hear it in the room when playing at your loud volume? It is more noticeable in video two.

Thanks, Peter. I'll see if I can clarify a few points here.

- I never suggested one should crank the volume up on either video here.

- Noise floors don't make noise. Hissing at least in my recordings is generally residue from the master tape during the A2D conversion. If you're hearing more hiss in the newer video, that's usually the result of higher resolution. After all, it's embedded in the recording. But a tape hiss in a digital playback is usually a little bit like vinyl's snap, crackle, pop. But hopefully to a much lesser extent. From my perspective, it's just barely noticeable and certainly negligible.

Aside from that noise floor,

Not sure what you mean by noise floor. There's only two noise floors that concern me i.e. the system's electrical-induced and the speaker/room acoustically-induced noise floors don't generally introduce audible noise. But these noise floors will mask much music info (including parts of every note) including rendering good percentages of music info inaudible (below the noise floor threshold) at the speaker.

both videos sound clean and dynamic. There is excessive sibilance on her voice and a lot of processing.

I'm unfamiliar with excessive sibilance - perhaps you could explain. To the best of my knowledge, there is sibilance and negative sibilance. When certain distortions remain unaddressed in a playback system, negative sibilance becomes a real factor. To the best of my knowledge, negative sibilance has been a non-issue in my system. This is not to say that an occassional moment of negative sibilance can never be present as sometimes the vocalist's mouth too close to a microphone, etc can induce some negative sibilance.

But my general rule is, if there is at least a single occurrence of excellent sibiliance during a playback presentation, then other occurences of negative sibilance usually is within the recording itself. IOW, when present this distortion within the system itself is a constant. But vocalists moving their mouths further and closer to their microphones is variable as are things done by the engineers during the recording.

A lot of processsing? No clue what you're implying so it seems to me you're reaching here. At the very least, please elaborate.

This is a very specific type of sound often used to demonstrate attributes. People like it. It is high in contrast, very black and white. I think it comes across in your system videos. The voice is very forward while the instruments are quite recessed. The piano is in the middle.

That sounds reasonable to me.

There is a whitish splashy character to the cymbals. They sound flat.

Unless you're speaking of the brushes against the cymbals I'm unaware of what you're talking about nor do I recall hearing it. Please elaborate.

Video one has less noise, video two is less flat sounding.

Based on your characterizations and my clarifications, that sounds about right.

It is interesting how they sound different and that you noticed over 75 small differences between the two. I only heard a few. Are these changes you hear from your extreme pressure clamping racks which continue to change the sound you hear for many months or a year?

Mostly. But I've also fine-tuned my subwoofer configs as well as auditioning a new product right now.

The perspective is different. The camera seems much closer in video one and further back, like your other videos in video two. Perhaps that is why video one sounds flatter to me and two less flat.

Nah. Once in a while I'll touch the iPhone to zoom in and do a close up. But the camera position always remains the same.

Maybe I hear more room influence in video two.

Doubtful. For several reasons but especially since nothing related there changes. For example. Say the newer system's resolution is genuinely superior than the older, one would actually hear less of the room and more of the recording hall. Not more of the listening room.

Those sub woofers have a lot of excursion, like your other pop/rock videos, but I do not hear a lot of low bass articulation. Where is the weight and body to the sax, piano, and bass?

Well, I'm guessing the subwoofer's excursions probably have very little to do with sax, maybe some to do with some piano notes, but obviously much more with bass notes.

Though bass can always, always be more finely tuned than what we presently hear in any system, I'm not overly concerned as illustrated here. Besides, the Danny Boy recording barely has any bass compared to this number. Crank this one all the way up.

I have seen LPs of this recording, but I do not know if it is analog or digital.

I'm betting you do.

The two videos have a distinct digital character to the presentation. People have commented on how the tone difference with the Shure mic compared to the iPhone mic.

There certainly are some drawbacks to digital vs analog particularly due to the quality of the analog-to-digital conversion process for which I have to work with. But it's not the end of the world.

When/if such genuine potential deficiancies arise as you claim here, it can often times be any combination of a number of things, including but not limited to inferior component selection, how the designers voiced their components, the fact that many digital recordings go thru an analog-to-digital conversion process and often times digital recordings can get clouded a bit in that process, something I've done erroneously, etc.

Then again, all components are inferior as are all designer's voicing of components and speakers, and systems and recordings too, so to some degree it's a pick-your-poison scenario.

My system is a digital source and my amps are Class D - and though not digital they seem to carry some digital-like attributes. Then there's my all silver ic's and sc's (speaker cables) and other electrical items that are cryogenically-treated via the full immersion method. IOW, I do everything reasonbly possible so as not to hinder a single bit of info embedded in the recording but instead let the recording determine the quality of playback presentation. This includes tape hiss - which can also be blamed on analog.

Yes, there are pros to analog and negatives to digital but also vice versa. I think some vinyl lovers like to imagine/invent perceived sounds in order to show their superiority over digital. Surely you're not trying to turn this into an analog vs digital thing, are you? You can't win.

Thank you for posting the comparison. It’s very interesting to hear the sound of your system through your videos. It’s quite a different presentation from some of the other videos on the thread.

Thanks.

 

[stehno]

David's online presence was abrasive and hard. If it wasn't his equipment, it was crap. Down to the ching cheng power cord.

He never had time to have me visit his showroom either. Maybe becaue I did not have a wallet to pour money towards him. I only wanted to hear what he preached.

Personally, I thought he was more dogmatic than accurate and was a bit surprised that some actually wanted to become his students.

 

[stehno]

Stehno likes it.

Stehno,

Is Peter correct that you like reproduced sound which exhibits all of these sonic attributes:

-- "excessive sibilance"

-- "a lot of processing"

-- "a very specific type of sound . . . to demonstrate attributes"

-- "high in contrast"

-- "very black and white"

-- "very forward voice"

-- "recessed instruments"

-- "whitish splashy" cymbals

-- "flat" sounding


Peter,

I don't believe that anyone would use the foregoing set of sonic characteristics collectively to describe the type of sound he/she "likes."

I hope I'm wrong but sometimes I feel that you write like this to describe and to criticize in a thinly veiled and slightly passive aggressive way anyone whose systems you feel do not satisfy your personal criteria of natural sound.

Interesting, Ron. I don't know if I'd call it passive / agressive so much as to me it's seems a bit more like posturing perhaps with the hope that others may chime in.

But taking into consideration that 2 short years ago Peter called all of my videos sterile and lifeless, I think I'm witnessing real growth potential here.

 

[stehno]

Cool, will listen later.

I have made what I consider to be a noticeable change in my room's acoustics, adding two corner "panels" and slightly changing the speaker placement. For the time being, they are an ugly assembly of what I had on hand, but will soon have a nicer looking model. I took measurements before and after (but only once I found that I enjoyed the results).

Attached pdf shows differences in measurements.

Video without corner panels

Video with corner panels & slight change in speaker placement (there may be a slight channel imbalance due to the way I was holding the mic)

The two recordings are taken from the same location (my listening position, which has not changed).

Sorry it's that tune again...

If you are curious to compare, it is best to focus on specific segments of the track.

EDIT: someone commented that the second track has too much emphasis on the left channel (I use ortf-stylr mics, handheld, and may have tilted them slightly) and this affects the stereo image. So maybe there are different pluses and minuses between the two recordings . I feel I am not very objective when it comes to listening to my own recordings, it's much easier to be critical with others'

Honestly, both recordings sound pretty much the same to me. Both are very good overall. You are to be commended on the level of musicality you've achieved with your system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I’m pretty surprised that now years later he’s actually saying he didn’t enjoy the sound.

Why this drama, Peter?

1) "excessive sibilance" + "a lot of processing" + sound . . . to demonstrate attributes" + "high in contrast" + "very black and white" + "very forward voice" + "recessed instruments" + "whitish splashy" cymbals + "flat" sound = Bad Sound. I don't know why you're pretending anybody would actually like sound which exhibits these characteristics.

2) I don't like Bad Sound.

3) You wrote: "My old system had this kind of sound. . . You heard it and told me you liked that sound."

4) So you disingenuously backed me into the corner of having to say I didn't like the sound of your system, because, if I did like the sound of your system, then I am trapped into liking Bad Sound.

5) I don't like going sailing. The fact that I did not want to go sailing means I preferred listening to your system rather than going sailing. That does not suddenly prove that I loved the sound of your system.

6) Your twisted pretzel logic about Bad Sound notwithstanding, I liked the sound of your old system. I was happy to listen to music on my new friend's audio system of which he was very proud. That does not mean it was sonically my cup of tea. I have never cared for solid-state on Magico. Please try to understand these opposing thoughts at the same time.

7) None of this means I "didn’t enjoy the sound" -- yet another mischaracterization by you in Post #1,642 -- in which you write falsely that I "actually" said this.


Capeesh?

 

[Ron Resnick]

He never denigrated any of my equipment.

You told me several times that David advised you that your SME turntable was the biggest bottleneck in your system.

 

[bonzo75]

He never denigrated any of my equipment.

No one who knew David online or personally will believe that.

 

[tima]

You told me several times that David advised you that your SME turntable was the biggest bottleneck in your system.

At least he was honest in his assessment.

If I asked a dealer what was the weak link in my system I'd appreciate his honest opinion rather than the 'politeness' of dishonesty. An honest opinion even one not positive is not the same as denigrating.

 

[the sound of Tao]

"People like it."

Peter,

Would you please tell us to whom you are referring here? Who likes:

-- "excessive sibilance"

-- "a lot of processing"

-- "a very specific type of sound . . . to demonstrate attributes"

-- "high in contrast"

-- "very black and white"

-- "very forward voice"

-- "recessed instruments"

-- "whitish splashy" cymbals

-- "flat" sound

Who, exactly, likes these sonic characteristics?

A great list of attributes of a more artificial “hi-fi”ish kind of sound that some seem to approve of when apparent in some system videos… for me though this type of system sound can just be more a musical gestalt shipwreck… a big showcase of sonic sensory over-feasting and a spectral noise-fest but ultimately with much of the music mostly dead on arrival.

“Big sounding overt” hifi systems are not hard to achieve, I’m sure most of us have heard plenty over the years (and these can occur at any reasonable price and well beyond). But not all express anywhere near as well the inherent context and spirit of the music being played… and I figure that some need to play their systems super loud just to feel anything at all from the music. The array of sounds is present and at times highly detailed yet the way the musicians had organised the sounds into a musical whole and the perspective of the music as a gestalt can easily have gone missing in action.

Where systems seem to vary so much is in their various abilities to let the music (the relative organisation and the structure and fine arrangement of the sounds and dynamic accents) come together to form the meaningful breath and pulse of the music and to flow through truthfully in a relatively unimpeded way that makes an easier and deeper connection with the music quite immediate.

I find stock iPhone recordings for me seem to fairly easily have the potential to demonstrate if a system is just full of sound and fury but ultimately a road block to letting great quality music performance through in an appropriately natural and musically expressive way. That quality is one of the first things I find apparent in system videos and can be a pointer to systems that allow the music’s artistry express just the way it can in great music performance.

 

[tima]

A great list of attributes of a more artificial “hi-fi”ish kind of sound that some seem to approve of when apparent in some system videos…

Which suggests that some indeed do like like that type of sound.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Which suggests that some indeed do like like that type of sound.

I realise some are more engaged in certain aspects of sound and that’s a legitimate goal if its what nourishes someone so even if some are more caught up in appreciation of disparate sonic elements rather than an experience of a coherent musical totality that’s just what it is… but if music connection is your first goal and sitting within the totality of music with aims towards naturalistic/more realistic portrayal of the instruments is the principal pointer for the compass or if you’re just chasing a disparate and incomplete checklist of sonically thrilling fragments then clearly system goals are going to vary. The system iPhone videos can reflect this. There can be a range of functional goals in developing any system and at different stages in this hobby we can find ourselves chasing different dragons either way but without sufficient music connection it’s completely moot for me… even if it’s just listening via an iPhone video.

 

[bonzo75]

He never criticized my existing equipment.

David thinks the Monaco sounds like a 100 quid Tesco CD Player.

Hands up those who think David likes Wilson Alexia, Magico, Pass labs, SME tables.

He does not like Beryllium drivers in horns and of Tang's cartridge stable he only liked vdh. He mentioned Opus was the best of the Japanese cartridges but that you can still make out it is a Japanese cartridge. He did not like Cessaro at all though after visiting Tang he appreciated his to probably be the best Cessaro.

Does he like audiophile cables, racks, etc.

Not saying these are sales tricks, as there are many non-dealers who do not like all those above components. But to say he did not criticise my components is just not correct. If I have a streamer feeding a dac, I don't need to ask David to specifically criticise it.

 

[Kingrex]

There is no short supply of people that don't like the sound of horns. They do have a sound. Horns can be perceives as hollow, cupped, shouting, wearing over time, too intense, lacking liquidity, splashy, overly airy, lacking meat and bones, thin. Not attributes one would call positive.

What I do find interesting is people I know who claim to love horns and even have some basic ones. Like say a Lascala. Yet they dump the tens of thousands into box speakers and massive SS amps to drive them. I'm not sure if this is because you have to pay a David crap loads of money to get a good set that dont sound like the above, then crap loads more for electronics. At least the power cord is cheap. Or, you have to spend years dialing it in yourself. And the electronics are their own can of worms.

I am sort of one of those people. I have heard the $8k type horns. Most fit in the above description so I politely thank the salesman. A friend is pushing me to buy his Altec 604E super duplex. Hmmm. Old comes to the front of my mind. Possible failing drivers or surrounds. Croasover issues. And I heard them at his house with crap electronics and was not impressed. Maybe a few more tokes and some red wine would have changed my mind, for a while. Even his bigger horns that blew me away on some songs would be too much to take every day.

 

[tima]

David thinks the Monaco sounds like a 100 quid Tesco CD Player.

Hands up those who think David likes Wilson Alexia, Magico, Pass labs, SME tables.

He does not like Beryllium drivers in horns and of Tang's cartridge stable he only liked vdh. He mentioned Opus was the best of the Japanese cartridges but still you can make out it is a Japanese cartridge.

Does he like audiophile cables, racks, etc.

Not saying these are sales tricks, but to say he did not criticise specifically my components is just not correct. If I have a streamer feeding a dac, I don't need to ask David to specifically criticise it.

Everyone has their likes and dislikes -- the forum is full of people expressing their opinions. The absence of opinion equals boredom. Particularly yourself -- you are as big or bigger critic of certain brands as anyone. You actively go after certain equipment whereas David will respond but not attack. I stand by my comments.

 

[bonzo75]

There is no short supply of people that don't like the sound of horns. They do have a sound. Horns can be perceives as hollow, cupped, shouting, wearing over time, too intense, lacking liquidity, splashy, overly airy, lacking meat and bones, thin. Not attributes one would call positive.

What I do find interesting is people I know who claim to love horns and even have some basic ones. Like say a Lascala. Yet they dump the tens of thousands into box speakers and massive SS amps to drive them. I'm not sure if this is because you have to pay a David crap loads of money to get a good set that dont sound like the above, then crap loads more for electronics. At least the power cord is cheap. Or, you have to spend years dialing it in yourself. And the electronics are their own can of worms.

I am sort of one of those people. I have heard the $8k type horns. Most fit in the above description so I politely thank the salesman. A friend is pushing me to buy his Altec 604E super duplex. Hmmm. Old comes to the front of my mind. Possible failing drivers or surrounds. Croasover issues. And I heard them at his house with crap electronics and was not impressed. Maybe a few more tokes and some red wine would have changed my mind, for a while. Even his bigger horns that blew me away on some songs would be too much to take every day.

I partially agree. There are some horns that are as per the sound you describe, and my quarrels with other SETs horns people have mostly been on the fact that I don't consider many efficient sensitive speakers horns. And there are many cones that I would choose over them including Wilson and Magic. There are very, very few good horns, and those which are good are way superior to modern sh*t fi in my opinion.

 

[bonzo75]

Everyone has their likes and dislikes -- the forum is full of people expressing their opinions. The absence of opinion equals boredom. Particularly yourself -- you are as big or bigger critic of certain brands as anyone. I stand by my comments.

You completely changed that around. That statement about me would have been valid only if an owner of the components I have openly criticized, whom I have visited, said I did not criticise his components. Well, maybe I did not tell him to his face this sucks. But what I think of them is very clear. So it would be wrong of him to say I did not criticize his components.

 

[tima]

That statement about me would have been valid only if an owner of the components I have openly criticized, whom I have visited, said I did not criticise his components.

QED