More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

[ddk]

Except that the tittle taken out of context (Paul's forum) becomes misleading. Andromedaaudio comment was spot on - we did not discuss Paul findings, but mostly our feelings about streaming.

Unfortunately it happens all the time at WBF - a poor tittle polarizes and poisons the whole thread.

Well, this polarized poisonous title is currently the most popular new thread on WBF! Also the title is exactly what reader’s question to Paul was and his answer confirms it. You may or may not agree with him, either way I’m fine everyone’s opinion on the subject.

Please re-read the whole thread. You entered the thread to discuss my opinions, not those of Paul. I did not view the video. Do you think that David, the OP, watched it in full? He just posted the link without a single line comment and from then on posted on sound for money of turntables and LPs!

Actually I watched the entire video and I was interested in his opinion about streaming since he has a following and he is a so called digital guy.

As far as my involvement in the thread I had a few riveting exchanges with my regular fanboys already but I’m not interested in them I was hoping to have exchanges with people I don’t normally connect with. Until now of course, I see you missed me too much so here I am!

david

 

[ddk]

Perfect Marty.
This forum can be so absurd and continues to be so trivial about so many things. We want to discuss/argue differences and at the same time think every product is the same. This dichotomy of quality is the root cause for most of the nonsense.
IN this case all streaming is not the same. WOW what a statement. Is Paul M. listening to the state of the art in streaming? I don't believe so.
So if all amps are not the same, and all speakers are not the same, and all preamps are not the same, and all turntables are not the same, and all tone arms are not the same, and all cartridges are not the same, and all cables are not the same, and all rooms are not the same, all all listeners don't have the same room, and all listeners don't have the same experience, and all listeners don't listen to the same music
Then someone please tell me what the heck is going on here?

Paul’s point was about the nature of streamed media not equipment. Yes equipment and setup is important but nothing can change the nature of the medium and it’s inherent limitations. This reminds me of cassettes and some of those conversations back in the day, Nakamichi’s 600, 700 and 1000, later the Dragon were definitely SOTA engineering and technical marvels but cassettes remained bland, rolled off and compressed sounding, nature of the medium! Still they were the SOTA and remain so to this day because analog tech was already settled and defined; not so with streaming. You can have some very expensive digital gear with superior abilities for streaming but it’s not SOTA when the medium is this unsettled and in a constant state of flux. This is more like guaranteed obsolescence.

david

 

[matthias]

Paul’s point was about the nature of streamed media not equipment. Yes equipment and setup is important but nothing can change the nature of the medium and it’s inherent limitations. This reminds me of cassettes and some of those conversations back in the day, Nakamichi’s 600, 700 and 1000, later the Dragon were definitely SOTA engineering and technical marvels but cassettes remained bland, rolled off and compressed sounding, nature of the medium! Still they were the SOTA and remain so to this day because analog tech was already settled and defined; not so with streaming. You can have some very expensive digital gear with superior abilities but it’s hardly SOTA when the medium is this unsettled and in a constant state of flux. This is more like guaranteed obsolescence.

david

I don't know what Paul is listening to when referring to streaming but when I read the Taiko thread here I always get the impression that there is virtually no difference between streaming from Qobuz and playback of local files. According to Emile this tiny gap gets smaller and smaller with the new router, switch, network card and Taiko's own software player. If this is the case then Paul's comments do not make much sense to me.

Matt

 

[Blackmorec]

Paul’s point was about the nature of streamed media not equipment. Yes equipment and setup is important but nothing can change the nature of the medium and it’s inherent limitations. This reminds me of cassettes and some of those conversations back in the day, Nakamichi’s 600, 700 and 1000, later the Dragon were definitely SOTA engineering and technical marvels but cassettes remained bland, rolled off and compressed sounding, nature of the medium! Still they were the SOTA and remain so to this day because analog tech was already settled and defined; not so with streaming. You can have some very expensive digital gear with superior abilities but it’s hardly SOTA when the medium is this unsettled and in a constant state of flux. This is more like guaranteed obsolescence.

david

Hi David,
Having watched the video, my overall impression was of a lot of guessing and supposition. To be honest I was surprised he’d actually posted something of such obviously low quality. The video was full of ‘I dont knows’ and that’s exactly what came across

As to cassettes, IMO they continued to provide more listenable mobile music well into the CDs lifetime. I bought and sold innumerable CDPs because I was desperate for good mobile music and CDPs had me grinding my teeth for over 2 decades, whereas cassettes, with all their inherent limitations didn’t and were actually a lot of fun to listen to. Of course, a lot of how cassettes sounded was down to the type of tape used and how they were recorded. From my perspective, cassettes were never meant for anything other than mobile music and at that, they were pretty decent, given the available alternatives at the time. A friend of mine once suggested that what I really needed was a Linn-man but that never got invented

 

[ddk]

I don't know what Paul is listening to when referring to streaming but when I read the Taiko thread here I always get the impression that there is virtually no difference between streaming from Qobuz and playback of local files. According to Emile this tiny gap gets smaller and smaller with the new router, switch and network card. If this is the case then Paul's comments do not make much sense to me.

Matt

Good question, someone should ask Paul. Maybe we should differentiate between downloads from the net and local uploads too. IME there are significant sonic differences between them.

david

 

[tima]

Has it been given considerate weight that streaming varies? Regional IP through country specific site in use right on through to personal firewall and AV. Invisible layers of security without any doubt touch every bit of web data. Will probably only grow more prominent.

There is a lot of infrastructure lying outside relatively low value streaming companies control. There is a lot work constantly being done to maintain and upgrade it that mostly works seamlessly despite running on older hardware or copies during operational changes. Not so long ago telephone or another service could go out for a week straight in many places.

Much ado about, potential injections justifying article on, nothing solid.

Okay. I think what you describe is not unique to audio streaming; these are general issues of data integrity, and change management for dynamic and real-time systems. I am not knowledgeable in the technology behind streaming audio from streaming services, although I know a little about data processing.

Perhaps a streaming expert can answer: What claims do services makes about their data? Does streamed audio include metadata about itself sufficient for a streamer or some other computer to validate the received file to the source file -- analogous to a checksum? Do streaming services know the streamer to whom they send data? Do local streamers/computers do data 'correction' or interpolation before handing off their payload to a DAC?

 

[Gregadd]

vinyl of course is only available via physical media.

 

[ddk]

Hi Blackmorec,

Hi David,
Having watched the video, my overall impression was of a lot of guessing and supposition. To be honest I was surprised he’d actually posted something of such obviously low quality. The video was full of ‘I dont knows’ and that’s exactly what came across

He was clear about his stance in regards to sound quality vs CD. Reasons why that is are too varied and mostly undetermined IMO I don’t think anyone can pin down every situation. Simple example streaming the same file with your phone using local Wi-Fi sounds very different from cellular networks and one isn’t always better than the other.

As to cassettes, IMO they continued to provide more listenable mobile music well into the CDs lifetime. I bought and sold innumerable CDPs because I was desperate for good mobile music and CDPs had me grinding my teeth for over 2 decades, whereas cassettes, with all their inherent limitations didn’t and were actually a lot of fun to listen to. Of course, a lot of how cassettes sounded was down to the type of tape used and how they were recorded.

Always disliked commercial music cassettes in any scenario mostly made my own recordings from LPs or R2R for the car until DAT came out, I switched instantly! I remember similar challenges like you with CD until mid 90’s , my first "high end" or maybe I should say pleasing CD experience was in car first with the Nakamichi player and later at home using a Barclay Cabernet transport and the Stax DAC x1-t, Levinson 30 + 31 and CEC transports came shortly after which I considered real high end digital. I think both the CEC and Levinson still maintain their high end status to this day, at least the transports are better than anything else I’ve heard and owned. Figuring out which interface and cable was also part of that early journey.

From my perspective, cassettes were never meant for anything other than mobile music and at that, they were pretty decent, given the available alternatives at the time.

Pretty much the point I was making, for some streaming is pretty decent and serves a purpose but non a par sound quality wise with other formats.

A friend of mine once suggested that what I really needed was a Linn-man but that never got invented

LOL!

david

 

[matthias]

Good question, someone should ask Paul. Maybe we should differentiate between downloads from the net and local uploads too. IME there are significant sonic differences between them.

david

Just in the case Paul is referring to streaming by listening with the new PS Audio AirLens his YT video can certainly not regarded as promotion for the product

But probably not since he claims on the PS Audio HP:
"Suddenly, streamed music rivals that of local music from your transport. Experience the difference from the AirLens."

Matt

 

[Gregadd]

There are few weaker rebuttals than the claim of being taken out of context. Then put it back in context. Paul hid behind a writer's letter. I am still waiting for a detailed discussion of the problems of streaming. You are the expert. Tell is in detail what is wrong with streaming. Otherwise, it is just a personal opinion of his preference.

 

[microstrip]

Paul’s point was about the nature of streamed media not equipment. Yes equipment and setup is important but nothing can change the nature of the medium and it’s inherent limitations. This reminds me of cassettes and some of those conversations back in the day, Nakamichi’s 600, 700 and 1000, later the Dragon were definitely SOTA engineering and technical marvels but cassettes remained bland, rolled off and compressed sounding, nature of the medium! Still they were the SOTA and remain so to this day because analog tech was already settled and defined; not so with streaming. You can have some very expensive digital gear with superior abilities for streaming but it’s not SOTA when the medium is this unsettled and in a constant state of flux. This is more like guaranteed obsolescence.

david

Only ignorance could convert cassette in SOTA sonically, although they were marvelous pieces of technology, as you say. Although they apparently had very large bandwidth - it could reproduce frequencies higher than 20 KHz, this only happened at low levels (-20dB). At 0 dB the bandwidth reduced to around 8 -15 kHz, depending on tape type. Complete measurements showed it all, Angus Mc Kenzie was the man in service in the 70's and early 80's in HiFi News.

But I can assure you that some high quality tapes that I recorded in my old CR7 do not sound "bland, rolled off and compressed" . Surely not SOTA, but musically very acceptable - we must remember that Nakamichi had a proprietary equalization and tapes recorded in a Nakamichi deck must be played in a Nakamichi.

BTW1, the nature of streaming is being promising. As far as I was told, the format is bit exact, and this assures us that any current problems must be due to implementation, not intrinsic. We already have excellent streamers and DACs, we can expect that the sound quality of cheaper equipment will increase significantly in the next years. And sorry, Paul does not say anything that makes us believe he is a digital expert in streaming in his writings. We have better in WBF.

BTW2, I am assuming that by streaming people refer to red book or high rez, not MP3 on mobile phones. This is WBF.

 

[TooCool4]

Reread his post, the word "physical" isn't in it.

Take a look at Post #241, below I have put in bold the word physical.

"A little bit of topic but regarding physical medium sales i think vinyl is the winner.
If i look at the shops these days half of the shop is filled with vinyl the rest CD s."

 

[wil]

Hi Blackmorec,

He was clear about his stance in regards to sound quality vs CD. Reasons why that is are too varied and mostly undetermined IMO I don’t think anyone can pin down every situation. Simple example streaming the same file with your phone using local Wi-Fi sounds very different from cellular networks and one isn’t always better than the other.

Always disliked commercial music cassettes in any scenario mostly made my own recordings from LPs or R2R for the car until DAT came out, I switched instantly! I remember similar challenges like you with CD until mid 90’s , my first "high end" or maybe I should say pleasing CD experience was in car first with the Nakamichi player and later at home using a Barclay Cabernet transport and the Stax DAC x1-t, Levinson 30 + 31 and CEC transports came shortly after which I considered real high end digital. I think both the CEC and Levinson still maintain their high end status to this day, at least the transports are better than anything else I’ve heard and owned. Figuring out which interface and cable was also part of that early journey.

Pretty much the point I was making, for some streaming is pretty decent and serves a purpose but non a par sound quality wise with other formats.

LOL!

david

Sound quality from the vast world of streaming is a mixed bag. A lot is mediocre, some is bad, a lot is good and some is great. It’s pretty easy to find the good and great stuff and ignore the rest if you want to. Probably easier than hunting down good recordings at your local record shop or online.

If you have a well set up system, it can be sonic bliss. This is my personal experience. Paul McGowan’s confused rambling or the opinion of someone who has a system only dedicated to vinyl doesn’t mean much on this particular subject!

 

[Rensselaer]

Perfect Marty.
This forum can be so absurd and continues to be so trivial about so many things. We want to discuss/argue differences and at the same time think every product is the same. This dichotomy of quality is the root cause for most of the nonsense.
IN this case all streaming is not the same. WOW what a statement. Is Paul M. listening to the state of the art in streaming? I don't believe so.
So if all amps are not the same, and all speakers are not the same, and all preamps are not the same, and all turntables are not the same, and all tone arms are not the same, and all cartridges are not the same, and all cables are not the same, and all rooms are not the same, all all listeners don't have the same room, and all listeners don't have the same experience, and all listeners don't listen to the same music
Then someone please tell me what the heck is going on here?

Your last paragraph in the posting above invokes a fait bit of consideration.

In addition to the differences in physical equipment and listening rooms you illuminated in your comment, as well as our completely different experiences and different references, I would like to add our varied hearing ability including everything involved in the process of turning physical sound waves into neurotransmissions, and then the processing of those those neuro-chemical messages into something which we can isolate as a real thing to which we apply judgement to, and in such a way that skips over the myriad of unknown defections/limitations in our hearing process. Add to this the truth that when I say “picture a valley with a river flowing through it“ that what you picture will be different from what I picture, yet we think we understand each others words accurately.

So, how should this understanding of our limitations in communication and differences in perception ( not to mention likes, dislikes and just plain bias) affect our communications on this forum? After ruminating a fair bit, I believe that this forum will be pleasant and useful when members ask “how do I …”, or “how did you …”, but will become a quagmire of confusion and hostility when we ask “what is your opinion of …”

 

[Elliot G.]

Your last paragraph in the posting above invokes a fait bit of consideration.

In addition to the differences in physical equipment and listening rooms you illuminated in your comment, as well as our completely different experiences and different references, I would like to add our varied hearing ability including everything involved in the process of turning physical sound waves into neurotransmissions, and then the processing of those those neuro-chemical messages into something which we can isolate as a real thing to which we apply judgement to, and in such a way that skips over the myriad of unknown defections/limitations in our hearing process. Add to this the truth that when I say “picture a valley with a river flowing through it“ that what you picture will be different from what I picture, yet we think we understand each others words accurately.

So, how should this understanding of our limitations in communication and differences in perception ( not to mention likes, dislikes and just plain bias) affect our communications on this forum? After ruminating a fair bit, I believe that this forum will be pleasant and useful when members ask “how do I …”, or “how did you …”, but will become a quagmire of confusion and hostility when we ask “what is your opinion of …”

I have stated before that everyone can hear but not everyone has learned how to listen. These are very different. I also agree that our language in describing things varies so much as to be mnarginally worthwhile. Unless we can understand what these terms mean to not only ourselves but to the others using them there is very little exchange of real understanding.

 

[Elliot G.]

Sound quality from the vast world of streaming is a mixed bag. A lot is mediocre, some is bad, a lot is good and some is great. It’s pretty easy to find the good and great stuff and ignore the rest if you want to. Probably easier than hunting down good recordings at your local record shop or online.

If you have a well set up system, it can be sonic bliss. This is my personal experience. Paul McGowan’s confused rambling or the opinion of someone who has a system only dedicated to vinyl doesn’t mean much on this particular subject!

I totally agree and believe that there are huge differences in streaming. I didn't want to go here but when one listens to a Wadax with the Akasa system it is very very very different than everything elese that I have experienced. Those include MSB, dCS, Taiko, PS Audio, CH Precision, Total Dac and more,
THis is not any different than with other sources they are not all the same. Are we saying that all turntables sound amazing? I think not...

 

[Elliot G.]

Paul’s point was about the nature of streamed media not equipment. Yes equipment and setup is important but nothing can change the nature of the medium and it’s inherent limitations. This reminds me of cassettes and some of those conversations back in the day, Nakamichi’s 600, 700 and 1000, later the Dragon were definitely SOTA engineering and technical marvels but cassettes remained bland, rolled off and compressed sounding, nature of the medium! Still they were the SOTA and remain so to this day because analog tech was already settled and defined; not so with streaming. You can have some very expensive digital gear with superior abilities for streaming but it’s not SOTA when the medium is this unsettled and in a constant state of flux. This is more like guaranteed obsolescence.

david

and every pressing of every record from every company varies in make up, thickness and material make up. Isnt this why the whole remastered industry began?
Not buying the arguement and cassettes have nothing at all to do with streaming as they are tape and analog

 

[ddk]

and every pressing of every record from every company varies in make up, thickness and material make up. Isnt this why the whole remastered industry began?

I agree with the first sentence but I don’t know what you mean by remastered industry, are you talking about audiophile labels or remastering as in digital?

Not buying the arguement and cassettes have nothing at all to do with streaming as they are tape and analog

Never said they did, used it as an example of limited sonic capability format, they exist.
david

 

[Elliot G.]

I agree with the first sentence but I don’t know what you mean by remastered industry, are you talking about audiophile labels or remastering as in digital?

Never said they did, used it as an example of limited sonic capability format, they exist.
david

I am talking about all the Audiophile remasters of albums primarily. Mustaches on the Mona Lisa. Will the real Dark Side of the Moon please stand up?

 

[PeterA]

For those who prefer the sonic experience of streaming to physical CDs played on transports, how much does one need to invest, and what products must one buy and assemble? Are we talking about Wadax level or Taiko Extreme or something a bit more pedestrian? Do all the cables and power supplies need to be carefully chosen and optimized for a particular system/location context, or can one say spend $30K and buy a list of stuff, put it all together and be set?

I'd like to read from those who advocate for streaming and better understand what is required to create a listening experience that they prefer to other digital alternatives.