More Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?

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PYP

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Taiko is at the forefront in what will become a more significant wave of audiophile network components.
I hope so. It seems so. That is the reason I read the Taiko thread -- to get a glimpse of that future.

They are unique in their holistic approach and that requires a lot of innovation, dedication and resources. To take on the task of creating their own playback software is rather bold (Go Team Taiko!). From user feedback, they have already succeeded in improving the sound significantly. The only question for the user might be what they give up in certain metadata functionality and the like vs. something like Roon in order to get better sound. It is wise that they also include Roon with the Extreme. Some folks might use both and that is a good option to have.

My own streamer was built with Roon in mind and they seem to have succeeded because the sound is very, very good (that is, musically engaging). I haven't tried another streamer in many years, so have no comparison. I compare it to live music and gauge it by my enjoyment. Works very well in both respects.

But the MU1 is also a DDC with some secret sauce. What I'm hearing is the combination of the network side (does a good job of rejecting upstream noise) and the sampling magic. Seems similar in concept to what Taiko is trying to do to benefit their server by offloading some of the work to the switch that precedes it. The MU1 does the difficult math so that the DAC can take it relatively [pun alert] easy (does that mean the MU1 is the Mileva Mari? of the pairing? :) ).
 

Blackmorec

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Agree with all you wrote. To me there is a tipping point where great sound becomes engaging sound.

During settling in of my latest addition, I would sometimes hear great sound but I wasn't fully engaged. In other words, I could not identify anything that was wrong, certainly no overt problems with frequencies overemphasized or sizzling highs, for example, but the "magic" wasn't there. A few more days and suddenly the "magic" returned.

The tipping point is easy to recognize because I start mass-consuming music. That is one fun part of Roon Radio. It serves up new (to me) music and I'm madly bookmarking the songs in order to listen to the entire albums later. And I keep checking to see if they are 24 bit because of the enveloping sound and the more realistic timbre (for me, probably the greatest difference between the setup I have now and the one I had years ago). Agree that to get there, noise in its many forms and points of ingress, vibration, jitter as well as the speaker/room interface need to be addressed.
Ha Ha, I know precisely the point you’re talking about, when the magic returns. In my case it sets me off listening to all my ‘super fidelity playlists‘ with titles like ‘Rhythm, rhythm, rhythm’, ”Bass you can feel” , ‘Imaging and soundstage’, ‘Watchlist’, ‘Emotions and feelings‘,
 
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bonzo75

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If WBF were around when Beethoven wrote his 9th, somebody probably would have said "lacks a good beat to dance to" and panned it.

that’s a quote from running on empty (Sidney Lumet, River Phoenix) to Beethoven
 

cjfrbw

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I cannot enjoy my favored format until I have destroyed all the others.
 
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Rensselaer

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It's not an 'obvious point', it's a silly question because the idea that anyone is "supposed to" listen to anything makes no sense. If you want to use the locution "not suppose to" you likewise embrace "supposed to". "You are listening to the wrong music" -- how far does that get you? You can have your opinion, others have their's.

What you are trying to imply is that "Streaming gives me access to new music and I like that." Or some such. Why not just say that? As a defense, however, it does not address the sound quality topic.

I find that music recorded in the heyday of big orchestras, say 1960 thru 1985-90 is better performed, better recorded and more interesting than most "new music." That's my opinion. It covers roughly 600 years of music making. There is plenty of it recorded and available on vinyl and compact disc. If I have not heard a piece, it is new to me. Based on RIAA data, "the years 1973 through 2018 saw nearly $29 billion in new vinyl sales." There is plenty of new music to be discovered and I don't need streaming to do that. If you do, that's fine by me.
Hi Tima,

I agree that streaming is a great way to get access to new music, perhaps the greatest advantage to streaming. I also agree, to a point, that music recorded to vinyl in the heyday (regardless of whether big orchestras or smaller jazz ensemble's, etc.) were better recorded. I understand your using vinyl record sales through 2018 (based on RIAA data) as proof that streaming isn't the only source of new music, but that point glosses over a serious issue in deciding if streaming is an inferior format, and not high end, that being lumping in digital to vinyl recordings with pure analogue to vinyl recordings "in the heyday" which ended circa 1980.

I am saying that digital (streaming or otherwise) is high end. It provides all the "hi-fi" characteristics often defined (extended highs, deep bass, lightning fast transients, great soundstage, etc.), in a highly accessible way, just differently, and in the opinion of many (who have compared digital to vinyl against pure analogue to vinyl on their own systems), not as nice as pure analogue. So both are high end, to many equally high end, and to a few (myself included) second place behind pure analogue, but still "high end".

My issue with your lumping together LP sales after the industry began cutting vinyl records from digital sources is that it (unintentionally perhaps) implies that the industry's conversion to digital did not harm record sales, whereas I think if you compare not only the rate of growth in LP sales of the major industry outlets with the growth in record sales of those specialist outlets that release strictly analogue tape master to LP cutter or Direct-To-Disc records like Acoustic Sounds, fone' , Berliner Meister Schallplatten, etc., but also who was buying from each, then I would speculate that there would be a larger percentage growth, certainly since 2000, in the specialist group dealing with pure analogue (my speculation only, I am sure someone here will no-doubt find evidence of an error on my part).
 

Elliot G.

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If WBF were around when Beethoven wrote his 9th, somebody probably would have said "lacks a good beat to dance to" and panned it.
Perfect Marty.
This forum can be so absurd and continues to be so trivial about so many things. We want to discuss/argue differences and at the same time think every product is the same. This dichotomy of quality is the root cause for most of the nonsense.
IN this case all streaming is not the same. WOW what a statement. Is Paul M. listening to the state of the art in streaming? I don't believe so.
So if all amps are not the same, and all speakers are not the same, and all preamps are not the same, and all turntables are not the same, and all tone arms are not the same, and all cartridges are not the same, and all cables are not the same, and all rooms are not the same, all all listeners don't have the same room, and all listeners don't have the same experience, and all listeners don't listen to the same music
Then someone please tell me what the heck is going on here?
 

Rensselaer

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Perfect Marty.
This forum can be so absurd and continues to be so trivial about so many things. We want to discuss/argue differences and at the same time think every product is the same. This dichotomy of quality is the root cause for most of the nonsense.
IN this case all streaming is not the same. WOW what a statement. Is Paul M. listening to the state of the art in streaming? I don't believe so.
So if all amps are not the same, and all speakers are not the same, and all preamps are not the same, and all turntables are not the same, and all tone arms are not the same, and all cartridges are not the same, and all cables are not the same, and all rooms are not the same, all all listeners don't have the same room, and all listeners don't have the same experience, and all listeners don't listen to the same music
Then someone please tell me what the heck is going on here?
Ah, the agonising paradox of ambiguous human truths as pertaining to different (and not equal) sound playback devices.
 

Gregadd

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Consensus's is of course an absolute and cannot be modifies. Either you have a consensus or you don't. It is sort like trying to define the size of infinity. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, they mean more evidence to support their alleged consensus. Anecdotal evidence that you prefer it is not evidence. No proof of any consensus has been given beyond maybe a straw poll.
Streaming is inferior to CD.? How can this be? Your CD player is essentially a streamer. Albeit over a much shorter distance. Most CDs are limited to Redbook. Whatever you have on a CD that's it. That's all you are ever going to get. The CD format along with almost all physical media is basically dead. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that anyone will put any serious oney to improve the format. Even if they did the results would be limited to the original recording. How would they improve the CD you already own? Any improvements would basically have to be to the hardware. Again, practically obsolete.
Steaming has to go a long way to arrive at your dac. But it is not limited. It is able to take advantage of any improvements and discoveries in hardware and software. For a horrible example, how would CD be able to take advantage of MQA [tm]? Or for that matter any format developed after it was produced. How can current CD take advantage of advances in analog to digital converters. Whatever improvements
I can't list all oof the advances in digital my streaming could take advantage almost immediately. IMO CD was a flawed mediums form the beginning. I for one am glad it is on its way out.
 
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bonzo75

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Consensus is a compromise where everyone loses as they find middle ground

- philosophically yours, I think therefore I am audiophile
 
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Gregadd

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They agree to the consensus not necessarily all the details.
 

wil

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As I have access to RF generators and fast pulsers, just for fun I have I have tried injecting RF noise in in the main power lines and even in the audio signals in my system. It had little or no effect in sound quality, much less that of harmonic distortion of the 50/60 Hz added to the mains.
This is interesting. We talk endlessly about RFI and EMI with the assumption that it creates interference with sq.

Do we actually know this to be the case?
 

PeterA

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More Less Consensus That Streaming Is An Inferior Format & Not High End?​


After reading the posts / thread it seems this title would be more appropriate

Except the thread title refers to the video prior to any discussion, not the content of the posts and discussion that follow.
 
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andromedaaudio

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Except the thread title refers to the video prior to any discussion, not the content of the posts and discussion that follow.

Okay peter i just watched the vid .

Sounds like the usual audiophile company marketing talk to me
First you have to establish/ find yourself a problem .
After you found that out then you can make / sell a solution to that problem.
The answer to that problem is as usual an extra shiny box

In this case put an extra shiny wonderbox between the internet ( compressed files ) and your sound system .
This supposedly will give you a SQ as good as CD .
The vid / PS audio is not even talking about analogue
 
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PeterA

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Okay peter i just watched the vid .

Sounds like the usual audiophile company marketing talk to me
First you have to establish/ find yourself a problem .
After you found that out then you can make / sell a solution to that problem.
The answer to that problem is as usual an extra shiny box

In this case put an extra shiny wonderbox between the internet ( compressed files ) and your sound system .
This supposedly will give you a SQ as good as CD .
The vid / PS audio is not even talking about analogue

That’s good. I think people should always watch the video that is the subject of the original post before commenting, don’t you think?
 

microstrip

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Except the thread title refers to the video prior to any discussion, not the content of the posts and discussion that follow.

Except that the tittle taken out of context (Paul's forum) becomes misleading. Andromedaaudio comment was spot on - we did not discuss Paul findings, but mostly our feelings about streaming.

Unfortunately it happens all the time at WBF - a poor tittle polarizes and poisons the whole thread.
 
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7ryder

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That’s good. I think people should always watch the video that is the subject of the original post before commenting, don’t you think?
Not if it's from Paul McGowan!
 

PeterA

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Except that the tittle taken out of context (Paul's forum) becomes misleading. Andromedaaudio comment was spot on - we did not discuss Paul findings, but mostly our feelings about streaming.

Unfortunately it happens all the time at WBF - a poor tittle polarizes and poisons the whole thread.

Are you suggesting that if the original post is a link to a video that you not watch the video before you respond to the title? That makes no sense to me.
 
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