Lampizator Horizon v. dCS Vivaldi Apex Listening Comparison

[bonzo75]

Like I said, debate is pointless and we can keep talking past each other, but in a day you could have done the rolls and no debate was required. It was a simple thing that you didn't do and are arguing about.

 

[Al M.]

Where did Keith write that "tube rolling does not make a difference"? Please cite that post.

I "liked" Keith's post because I think that "tube rolling doesn’t fundamentally change the sound of any component, but rather the seasoning or flavor." I totally agree with this.

If tube rolling in the Allnic made it go from "sh*t" to gold I do not believe it. I think you are assigning hyperbolically dramatic words to relatively small sonic changes.

It depends if the changes are small or not.

I changed the JJ 12AU7 driver tubes in my Octave power amp to the allegedly sought after 1950s RCA 12AU7 black plate tubes. Differences so small that I didn't bother wanting to spend time on a lengthy audition.

Then I replaced the KT150 power tubes with KT120 tubes (both bias adjusted). At least in my system context the KT120s have a much fuller, thicker sound from midbass to treble, which I greatly prefer.

Huge difference. It sounds like a very different amp. And thinking about it, it actually is: the amplification devices have changed in type.

 

[Steve Williams]

FWIW I’m not a tube roller. It took me several sets of tubes to understand what the stock set of tubes brought and what I like. Once there I no longer roll tubes. I’m in hogs heaven. I have to say as well Ron I’m surprised at some of your statements. I totally agree with what Ked stated. His references and comments make for strong arguments that are difficult to refute

 

[Al M.]

FWIW I’m not a tube roller. It took me several sets of tubes to understand what the stock set of tubes brought and what I like. Once there I no longer roll tubes. I’m in hogs heaven. I have to say as well Ron I’m surprised at some of your statements. I totally agree with what Ked stated. His references and comments make for strong arguments that are difficult to refute

While I am not a Lampi owner, my above described experience strongly supports the argument of tube changes potentially having a large impact on the sound. So does Francisco's experience with his preamp.

 

[Steve Williams]

While I am not a Lampi owner, my above described experience strongly supports the argument of tube changes potentially having a large impact on the sound. So does Francisco's experience with his preamp.

It goes beyond being a Lampi owner. This applies to owners of all tube components IMO

 

[Al M.]

It goes beyond being a Lampi owner. This applies to owners of all tube components INO

Well, as I said.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

not sure I agree with this. When I had my Pacific I couldn’t imagine anything better. When I got the Horizon and had opportunity to select a tube kit that fit my system and satisfied my ears there was clearly a superior in system performance than with the Pacific. There are users now all of whom have different tube kits yet still use the Horizon as there in lies the beauty that one can tailor it to suit their ears and system It’s a no brainer

trying to understand your logic here, Steve. maybe you did not read my post thoroughly enough? or i did not express myself clearly?

what i wrote.....

tube rolling in and of itself is no guarantee of superior in-system performance verses another dac. yet for sure, it made a significant positive difference.

being able to roll tubes in the Horizon does not insure it will perform better than other dacs to any/every listener in every system.

i'm not addressing your view of how wonderful tube rolling the Horizon might be. i agree you love it. but that is not relevant to my point.

 

[pk_LA]

Hi Patrick

I hope all is well. As for a Ked’s remarks I feel there is some truth to this when it comes to you and tubes. Bottom line imho was you returned a DAC and tubes that by your own admission had only 15 hours on them. Tuckia is giving us a very reasonable follow up to that DAC and tubes. I think we just have to agree that you are not a tube individual , which is fine but the reality is any impressions derived by you and Ron were premature at best and cannot be in any way accurately compared to other DACS.

Hi Steve,
Fair point. I do not at all disagree that a) the Lampi was not broken in and b) tube rolling to find the best system synergy was not done.

Still, I am not sure that renders me, "...not a tube individual..." The fact is that over and over again the best sound to my ears has been from tube-based, or at least partial tube-based, systems.

My reaction above to bonzo75 was to what felt like being undermined on the basis of not wanting to tube roll. What if I were to make the note that anyone who does not audition many components in their system at their home might as well just call their dealer and have them bring something out and set it up? I suspect that some people might find that a bit overbearing. Questions about access and time and practicality of doing so might legitimately arise.

What continues to baffle me is this: No place on this thread have I made a declaration about a component or impugned a component. The truth is that every single dac I have auditioned thus far has been truly great. It is really just a matter of identifying the dac that is a fit for me - sonically, practically etc.

Frustrated as I might be please know that I have very much appreciated the support, the help and the opinions of all of you! Thank You!

 

[PeterA]

It goes beyond being a Lampi owner. This applies to owners of all tube components IMO

Steve, Have you rolled the tubes of your Lamm electronics? I ask because I just bought multiple replacement sets for my entire suite of Lamm electronics. Lamm supplied me with five sets of matched tubes for each specific serial number of my components. I don’t have the tube tester nor the required specifications for my specific gear to buy tubes with the optimum measurements for recommended performance.

I suppose I could just start buying random tubes of the type required and start listening tests. I’m just curious if you have tried this.

 

[Sampajanna]

Hi Steve,
Fair point. I do not at all disagree that a) the Lampi was not broken in and b) tube rolling to find the best system synergy was not done.

Still, I am not sure that renders me, "...not a tube individual..." The fact is that over and over again the best sound to my ears has been from tube-based, or at least partial tube-based, systems.

My reaction above to bonzo75 was to what felt like being undermined on the basis of not wanting to tube roll. What if I were to make the note that anyone who does not audition many components in their system at their home might as well just call their dealer and have them bring something out and set it up? I suspect that some people might find that a bit overbearing. Questions about access and time and practicality of doing so might legitimately arise.

What continues to baffle me is this: No place on this thread have I made a declaration about a component or impugned a component. The truth is that every single dac I have auditioned thus far has been truly great. It is really just a matter of identifying the dac that is a fit for me - sonically, practically etc.

Frustrated as I might be please know that I have very much appreciated the support, the help and the opinions of all of you! Thank You!

What did you choose in the end?

 

[pk_LA]

What did you choose in the end?

I have a couple options remaining to audition before making a choice.

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve, Have you rolled the tubes of your Lamm electronics? I ask because I just bought multiple replacement sets for my entire suite of Lamm electronics. Lamm supplied me with five sets of matched tubes for each specific serial number of my components. I don’t have the tube tester nor the required specifications for my specific gear to buy tubes with the optimum measurements for recommended performance.

I suppose I could just start buying random tubes of the type required and start listening tests. I’m just curious if you have tried this.

The only tube I have ever rolled in my 20 years of LAMM is tge 12AX7 in the amp. I use the Telefunken NOS gold pin ECC803S None others

 

[Steve Williams]

trying to understand your logic here, Steve. maybe you did not read my post thoroughly enough? or i did not express myself clearly?

what i wrote.....



being able to roll tubes in the Horizon does not insure it will perform better than other dacs to any/every listener in every system.

i'm not addressing your view of how wonderful tube rolling the Horizon might be. i agree you love it. but that is not relevant to my point.

Mike. You are questioning me about tube changes in order to find the best tube set to optimize my Horizon yet you have bought allegedly the best DAC in the galaxy yet you felt the need to optimize yours with all sorts of things. to make it better so perhaps I could ask you your logic

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike. You are questioning me about tube changes in order to find the best tube set to optimize my Horizon yet you have bought allegedly the best DAC in the galaxy yet you felt the need to optimize yours with all sorts of things. to make it better so perhaps I could ask you your logic

huh?

did you even read either of my posts you responded to? and understand what i wrote? i suppose it does not matter.

in any case, have a great 4th of July Weekend!

 

[Audiocrack]

Mike. You are questioning me about tube changes in order to find the best tube set to optimize my Horizon yet you have bought allegedly the best DAC in the galaxy yet you felt the need to optimize yours with all sorts of things. to make it better so perhaps I could ask you your logic

Any audio component, being “allegedly the best DAC in the galaxy” or not, can in a certain audio set up be ‘personalized’ or be ‘bettered’. In 40+ of audio experience I have learned that (nos) tubes can make a very, very significant difference, even (or should I perhaps write: in particular?) in (very) expensive (pre)amps and tube dacs, while top notch grounding always makes a huge difference, decoupling audio components a significant difference, etc, etc.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Like I said, debate is pointless and we can keep talking past each other, but in a day you could have done the rolls and no debate was required. It was a simple thing that you didn't do and are arguing about.

As a matter of the policy of this DAC survey tube rolling was not going to be part of this audition process. Keeping candidates unadulterated as they arrived from the factory is the rule of this survey. I am baffled why you seem unable to process this fact.

As to me personally, I have collected over the last few years an inventory of a variety of NOS tubes for the first couple of gain stages of the Io control unit and for the VTL pre-amp. I vaguely remember even buying NOS tubes for a Doshi tape pre-amp just in case that is the tape pre-amp I eventually get. After the future system is set-up and I settle on speaker position I plan, at some point, to try the NOS tubes. Tube rolling will be closer to the last thing I do than it will be to the first thing I do.

 

[bonzo75]

As a matter of the policy of this DAC survey tube rolling was not going to be part of this audition process. Keeping candidates unadulterated as they arrived from the factory is the rule of this survey. I am baffled why you seem unable to process this fact.

Policy? Lol. Did you guys sign a TOS before auditioning? You are making policies and principles where none exist. Tomorrow you can make a policy to unbox your speakers and not change the position where they are unloaded. What survey and rule? This is hilarious

 

[Ron Resnick]

Policy? Lol. Did you guys sign a TOS before auditioning? You are making policies and principles where none exist. Tomorrow you can make a policy to unbox your speakers and not change the position where they are unloaded. What survey and rule? This is hilarious

Policies don't exist for contests? My general understanding is that every game or contest has specific rules determined in advance to make the contest fair to all competitors.

 

[bonzo75]

Policies don't exist for contests? My general understanding is that every game or contest has specific rules determined in advance to make the contest fair to all competitors.

So if one product can be tweaked and the other cannot your policy of the level the playing field by making sure both don't?

I think we should abolish exams as smarter children do well.

This is the height of socialism

 

[Steve Williams]

Any audio component, being “allegedly the best DAC in the galaxy” or not, can in a certain audio set up be ‘personalized’ or be ‘bettered’. In 40+ of audio experience I have learned that (nos) tubes can make a very, very significant difference, even (or should I perhaps write: in particular?) in (very) expensive (pre)amps and tube dacs, while top notch grounding always makes a huge difference, decoupling audio components a significant difference, etc, etc.

Precisely my point Rudoloh. Tubes matter. Everything matters. So to say one thing matters more to me is utter BS. The same way you optimized your unit I have done the same. However mine is a tube unit. Yours isn’t. What is it that you don’t get I can bet both you and Mike that if you had a tube DAC both of you would be the first to seek out tubes that fit your system and sound right to your ears. It’s all very basic. All roads lead to Rome. I have found my path. You have found yours. It’s all good. But don’t ever say that a demo of a tube DAC is complete with just the stock tubes. This is the premise upon which Ron and Patrick based their decision. Frankly I totally disagree. Patrick knows my feelings. I had a long talk with him last night. He also told me that the best sound of all the DACs he has heard was at my house in February. He just couldn’t achieve the same sound at his house even though he admits 15 hours with a new unit and new tubes is woefully inadequate