Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[bonzo75]

Multicell for jbl 075 like dietmars horn speakers
View attachment 84340
View attachment 84341

Those multi cells for Dietmar were made by Markus klug

 

[morricab]

I'll tell you how I would build a horn speaker.
High : JBL 075 in a Jbl 2404 horn from 3khz-19khz
Mid : Electrovoice DH1A in a Altec 1505 Horn(Wood ) 450Hz -3khz
Bass: Altec 515b 8G in a Onken 27Hz-450Hz
Xover all drivers 18dB Slope some L-Pad for high and Mid
You get 102db/ 1Watt from 27hz to 19 Khz

after that you will only smile at people who buy modern speakers

I am quite fond of TQWT bass loading...something like the Horning Eufrodite with a bunch of woofers loading a TQWT and a high sensitiivity mid/bass and then a horn (Horning uses a paper cone tweeter...I would use a horn from about 600-800 Hz).

I would look at doing something like the following:

Spherical or elliptical wood horn from 600-800Hz - 20Khz (preferred no super tweeter if possible for better coherence) or to about 12Khz with a Fostex supertweeter or equivalent (is the JBL 075 really the best choice??). Driver, tbd. perhaps a field coil of new type (WVL? CAR?) or maybe TAD? Perhaps something cheaper even sounds better...

Supravox 285GMF or 285-2000 or field coil version as the mid-bass. Sensitivity 100-102db, depending on the model.

Woofers, two Supravox 285GMF in large TQWT. The midbass one would also drive the TQWT (so actually a DTQWT...like Horning). This will be flat to 30hz and give something below as well.

I think a bit over 100db/watt would be sensitive enough to use the kind of amps I would be interested in and the relatively large drivers, aided by the DTQWT, would be effortless with all reasonable (and some unreasonable levels). It would also have very good micro/macro dynamics.

So, basically a bigger badder Horning Eufrodite with the big difference using Supravox instead of Lowther for the mid/bass and a horn covering a wide range of the upper mid/highs.

Stitched together with 2nd order xovers (active or passive...probably active).

 

[DasguteOhr]

Such bass arrays have a nice quick response behavior and are often used in electrostatic loudspeakers. main reason keeping distortions low is a good idea. the jbl is great because it plays without a sound pressure drop up to the upper limit frequency of 21.5khz -2dB
Multicell or 2404 i would try both i liked that very much.
Supravox works in a cessaro wagner perfect extremely light membrane 6 grams..good choice

 

[DasguteOhr]

Sorry 8" mass 6 grams

 

[bonzo75]

Such bass arrays have a nice quick response behavior and are often used in electrostatic loudspeakers. main reason keeping distortions low is a good idea. the jbl is great because it plays without a sound pressure drop up to the upper limit frequency of 21.5khz -2dB
Multicell or 2404 i would try both i liked that very much.
Supravox works in a cessaro wagner perfect extremely light membrane 6 grams..good choice

Have you heard the Wagner

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sorry 8" mass 6 grams

What you mean a 8 inch membrane weighing 6 grams ??

 

[andromedaaudio]

According to them a 9 inch FR unit weighs 8,1 grams , that is indeed very light ( if its true ) usually the trade off would be reduced stiffness ,certainly with a 9 inch unit , its hard to believe that unit is able to act pistonic .
Probably natural but weak bass , no real impact
freq reponse aint that bad for a fullrange unit , except for the top end

 

[MarcelNL]

Not trying to start a pissing contest, I'd advocate using the JBL 075 from a higher frequency, and foregoing any other filter by using full range woofers in a front loaded horn.
I'm using JBL2402 with sine cap filter from approx 7Khz in the prototype below. (taken during the build)

 

[DasguteOhr]

Have you heard the Wagner

Yes, Wagner and Beta with tron tube pre and telstar 211 set amp.
Wagner is good the Beta is amazing.

@andromeda
They modified them to arround 6 grams

 

[andromedaaudio]

Regarding supravox, probably they dont count the middle section , iow the cut out in the membrane .
Usually a small horn is incorporated to take care of the high freq .
So with that piercing the membrane the overall membrane weight is substantially reduced

 

[Solypsa]

Not trying to start a pissing contest, I'd advocate using the JBL 075 from a higher frequency, and foregoing any other filter by using full range woofers in a front loaded horn.
I'm using JBL2402 with sine cap filter from approx 7Khz in the prototype below. (taken during the build)

Are those the Tesla woofers? They play to 7khz? wow...

 

[DasguteOhr]

View attachment 84348

big horns are good, i had not the space build this. I really wanted to work with Ev DH 1 so I pushed the 075 to the limit

 

[MarcelNL]

Those are indeed the Tesla's , they go up to 6-ish K and then drop off while the JBL come in and are full on at ~7K.
Great units IMO, similar to KL405 VAC with slightly different forte's but at totally different price levels

 

[MarcelNL]

I don't have the space either so I built one ;-) the other will be added when the new house is ready.
To me the JBL starts to become a bit gritty and shouty below ~5K, but it works pretty well.

 

[DasguteOhr]

According to them a 9 inch FR unit weighs 8,1 grams , that is indeed very light ( if its true ) usually the trade off would be reduced stiffness ,certainly with a 9 inch unit , its hard to believe that unit is able to act pistonic .
Probably natural but weak bass , no real impact
freq reponse aint that bad for a fullrange unit , except for the top end

View attachment 84347

In a backloaded horn like Wagener works no little speaker

Height	132 cm
Width	36 cm
Depth	78 cm
Total Weight	110 kg per unit

 

[DasguteOhr]

Those are indeed the Tesla's , they go up to 6-ish K and then drop off while the JBL come in and are full on at ~7K.
Great units IMO, similar to KL405 VAC with slightly different forte's but at totally different price levels

Tone tubby are real good woofers 12" with a little notch 3 - 5khz

Alnico Red - Tone Tubby

The Original Tone Tubby®, the favorite of Carlos Santana and many others. Rock-solid bottom end, silky rolled-off highs, and midrange that speaks to you. With ample clean headroom and plenty of power, this is a superb all-around speaker. 50 watt Listen to Red Alnico Speaker...

www.tonetubby.com

 

[MarcelNL]

dunno, with an Fs of 107 Hz things do not bode well IMO, besides I'm fully stocked on Tesla's.

Did you ever hear a Klangfilm speaker using KL405 (AlNiCo)? The Tesla's (AlNiCo) come very close, I somehow do not expect those PA speakers to come anywhere near fullrange for much else than a Guitar, but I've never heard them.

 

[DasguteOhr]

dunno, with an Fs of 107 Hz things do not bode well IMO, besides I'm fully stocked on Tesla's.

Did you ever hear a Klangfilm speaker using KL405 (AlNiCo)? The Tesla's (AlNiCo) come very close, I somehow do not expect those PA speakers to come anywhere near fullrange for much else than a Guitar, but I've never heard them.

Tesla 15 aro932 right?
Yes Eckmiller Speakers

 

[andromedaaudio]

My all time favourite are the ETON 11 and 12 inch woofers , i m gonna use their lastest 11 - 12 inch version in my new speaker design , with slightly reduced membrane weight/ enhanced drive system , its still off course a kevlar honey comb structure .
No paper here
The new one is around 92 efficient, so if i would incorporate this in a XPE version it d give me a 1 db advantage 95 instead of 94 db overall

For the rest bass is all about the housing construction / filtering off course



new




old version

 

[MarcelNL]

No Tesla 835, the larger tesla's are nowhere near as good IMO.

I don't think the Eckmillers already used KL405, which came much later,but the O15 speaker (never heard them). I was more pointing at Bionor or anything using 'Breitstrahlgruppe" with KL405.