Visit to Boston to Hear the Sublime Sound of PeterA

[Ron Resnick]

+1 That was one of the most enjoyable and informative reports I've read on WBF in quite a while. Congrats to Ron and to Peter, whose attention to little details that make big differences can't be overstated.

Thank you, Marty! Peter is a great event planner!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your comments. I used to have your opinion:

“I think transistor designs will continue to have an advantage in dynamics and rise time and tube designs will continue to have an advantage in warmth and smoothness and emotional connection. ”

But:

Since I entered the world of very high efficiency speakers / horns, i learned that this was simply wrong. The SET amplifiers I have been listening to make all the SS I have heard sound incredibly slow and non-dynamic. I don’t think that automatically one could say they convey warmth as that is colouration unless in the recording. I would say these SETs have more ability to not remove / bleach out natural harmonic content (possibly perceived as warmth sometimes) in the recording.

I do agree though that partnering a great SET with the wrong speaker will lead you to your conclusions.

Cheers, Bill

 

[bonzo75]

+1. It is what you partner the amps with.

 

[Al M.]

Since I entered the world of very high efficiency speakers / horns, i learned that this was simply wrong. The SET amplifiers I have been listening to make all the SS I have heard sound incredibly slow and non-dynamic.

(emphasis added)

Bill, your statement engages in the excessive hyperbole that Ron has repeatedly warned us about. It completely undermines any credibility that your argument might have.

***

I also happen to believe that you are very wrong, and that you simply may not have heard the right SS amps on the right speakers. But that is an entirely different matter.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

(emphasis added)

Bill, your statement engages in the excessive hyperbole that Ron has repeatedly warned us about. It completely undermines any credibility that your argument might have.

***

I also happen to believe that you are very wrong, and that you simply may not have heard the right SS amps on the right speakers. But that is an entirely different matter.

Al - you are entitled to an opinion as am I. But please re-read my post as you will see I am talking about “very high efficiency speakers / horns”

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Forgot to add - this speaker context is absolutely everything to my statement

 

[bonzo75]

(emphasis added)

Bill, your statement engages in the excessive hyperbole that Ron has repeatedly warned us about. It completely undermines any credibility that your argument might have.

***

I also happen to believe that you are very wrong, and that you simply may not have heard the right SS amps on the right speakers. But that is an entirely different matter.

Both he and I said amps are speaker dependent and that you cannot make a rule. You have to compare SETs on horns vs SS on speakers that require SS. That was the point. That one cannot say SS is more dynamic than valve, and the latter is not just smoother and warmer

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Both he and I said amps are speaker dependent and that you cannot make a rule. You have to compare SETs on horns vs SS on speakers that require SS. That was the point. That one cannot say SS is more dynamic than valve, and the latter is not just smoother and warmer

Exactly Ked. Thanks for clarification.

 

[Al M.]

Both he and I said amps are speaker dependent and that you cannot make a rule. You have to compare SETs on horns vs SS on speakers that require SS. That was the point. That one cannot say SS is more dynamic than valve, and the latter is not just smoother and warmer

I was perfectly aware that this was the point. This does not excuse the excessive hyperbole.

 

[dcc]

Great write up and what a lovely house. The system integrates well in the interior. Would a tape deck fit in such a delicate living room?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I was perfectly aware that this was the point. This does not excuse the excessive hyperbole.

That is your opinion Al. This is a forum - if you think my statement is hyperbolic then that is fine. I don’t think it is so please don’t try to declare whether I can be “excused” or not AND more to the point paint that I have committed some form of misdemeanour or committed some bad social etiquette.

Happy to discuss your experience of SET / horns though with respect to the question under discussion.

 

[PeterA]

Uncover that wonderful fireplace !!!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

View attachment 43942

That is a superbly handsome room, Peter. Are those ASC tube traps? What about the ones adjacent?

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Peter - did you ever try to cover the glass in the dresser on the left? Is if full of stuff? Would imagine it can resonate a lot.

Forgot - is that a suspended wood floor you have (meaning laid onto joists)? Wondered how you dealt with the Magico being spiked into those and the whole structure not sounding like a musical instrument - my father’s Victorian house has suspended floor and they sing to the system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for your comments. I used to have your opinion:

“I think transistor designs will continue to have an advantage in dynamics and rise time and tube designs will continue to have an advantage in warmth and smoothness and emotional connection. ”

But:

Since I entered the world of very high efficiency speakers / horns, i learned that this was simply wrong. The SET amplifiers I have been listening to make all the SS I have heard sound incredibly slow and non-dynamic. I don’t think that automatically one could say they convey warmth as that is colouration unless in the recording. I would say these SETs have more ability to not remove / bleach out natural harmonic content (possibly perceived as warmth sometimes) in the recording.

I do agree though that partnering a great SET with the wrong speaker will lead you to your conclusions.

Cheers, Bill

I hear ya! But I also think you have waded into some tricky issues and complicated questions there.

1) The dynamics you are enjoying may be more a function of high-sensitivity loudspeakers in general (regardless of the amplifier topology with which they are driven) than the horn/SET combination per se. Maybe high-power Spectral on horns would be even more dynamic and even faster-sounding than SET?

2) Maybe the solid-state amplification is not removing/bleaching harmonic content; maybe the SET is adding attractive-sounding even order harmonic distortion.*

*I am happy to argue the other side just as well as I argue my side.

 

[Ron Resnick]

(emphasis added)

Bill, your statement engages in the excessive hyperbole that Ron has repeatedly warned us about. It completely undermines any credibility that your argument might have.

***

I also happen to believe that you are very wrong, and that you simply may not have heard the right SS amps on the right speakers. But that is an entirely different matter.

Al has a fair point here. What does “incredibly slow” mean sonically? The only thing I can think of as being truly incredibly slow would be listening to a turntable spinning at a speed noticeably slower than 33 1/3 rpm.

When, at Ian’s house, we all found the cj line stage to sound on Pictures oddly lethargic compared to the darTZeel I don’t think any of us would have described the cj as “incredibly slow.”

 

[Tango]

I guess horn/set is not so popular in US.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Al has a fair point here. What does “incredibly slow” mean sonically? The only thing I can think of as being truly incredibly slow would be listening to a turntable spinning at a speed noticeably slower than 33 1/3 rpm.

Hi Ron,

Nothing to do with TT speed - I am extremely sensitive to that as I am pitch perfect. Ask General how sensitive I am lol. They can both be perfectly speed accurate and sound very different!

I am talking about perceived speed of transients and changes in micro dynamics.

 

[bonzo75]

I guess horn/set is not so popular in US.

To paraphrase Al, they have not heard enough amp speaker combinations

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I hear ya! But I also think you have waded into some tricky issues and complicated questions there.

1) The dynamics you are enjoying may be more a function of high-sensitivity loudspeakers in general (regardless of the amplifier topology with which they are driven) than the horn/SET combination per se. Maybe high-power Spectral on horns would be even more dynamic and even faster-sounding than SET?

2) Maybe the solid-state amplification is not removing/bleaching harmonic content; maybe the SET is adding attractive-sounding even order harmonic distortion.*

*I am happy to argue the other side just as well as I argue my side.

Hi Ron,

Will start with 2nd question cos it is easier for me to answer.

I too thought ad nauseam about your statement of adding distortion and I think that might be true for certain imho badly matched SET/speaker combos where the SET is being clipped. But with the well matched caveat my view is based on my life experience listening to real classical instruments and then asking myself does this amp/speaker sound like accurate timbre of that or not. I like to listen to strings, piano or brass to establish this.

Now coming back to the question - my experience is that the best classical LP recordings are from the golden era especially the period that the Ortofon Lyrec with full valve chains of electronics were employed - these recordings just get the closest of all to what is my perception of the real timbre that most closely fools me. As the LPs moved to ss chains, things take a real nose dive for me - but I agree there are confounders here such as limiters etc.

Finally the systems I have heard that moved me the most and reminded me of the actual event have been SET/horn.

In terms of the first question, I am going to cop out somewhat mainly cos I don’t have enough experience listening to ss amplifier specifically with horns AND because I couldn’t think of any reason why I would want to due to my answer above. I might add that I have unfairly clustered “SETs” but this is ridiculous since they are a heterogeneous breed and do not sound alike. But my current absolute reference bar none for timbre is the Mayer 46 amplifier - it is simply astonishing majestic and authentic sounding to my ears and easily beats a whole host of other SETs I have heard recently - anyway that is a little off piste.