Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Mike Lavigne]

Ron have you considered splitting the ic length and perhaps the source components being in your source space and maybe 6-8 meters from the phono/ tape pre output to the preamp in your listening space and then 9-11 meters from the preamp to the bass towers. At least the concerns about the electrical demands of long ic runs are reduced. The Io has the output to handle this no problem.

Perhaps a port that can pass through ic runs may reduce the length of having sources in a seperate space.

or use darTZeel preamps and amps where any length 'zeel' cable does, in my experience, sound the same. I've compared 1 meter to 11 meter and cannot hear the difference. I can hear differences between cable brands of 'zeel', but not length differences with the same brand. optimally executed 'zeel' 50 ohm interfaces seem to 'apparently' solve the length issue.

at least this has been the case with both the Evolution Acoustics 'zeel' and the darTZeel 'zeel' cables.

Herve' claims any length 50 ohm 'zeel' up to .5 kilometer sounds the same. I would differ to Herve' as he knows his stuff about cable geometry. I would refer anyone to an article Herve wrote in the September 2001 Stereophile magazine about 'cable echo's' and that all conventional interconnects suffer unavoidably from it, the longer the worse. it's not on line, but I do have a hard copy I could scan if anyone cares. it's got too much 'high math' for me to digest. I just listen and relate opinions.

scientific proof? no. but 'zeel' cable passes the smell test.

 

[Tango]

Folsom, with respect to the convenience issue the turntable is just on the other side of the wall from the listening position and there is a five foot wide opening between the two rooms.

I am about 4 meters from tts. They are part of my daily exercise...keeping me agile. There will be some quick feet moments, Ron.

Tang

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron have you considered splitting the ic length and perhaps the source components being in your source space and maybe 6-8 meters from the phono/ tape pre output to the preamp in your listening space and then 9-11 meters from the preamp to the bass towers. At least the concerns about the electrical demands of long ic runs are reduced. The Io has the output to handle this no problem.

Perhaps a port that can pass through ic runs may reduce the length of having sources in a seperate space.

No, I have not thought of that. It is an interesting suggestion.

What is your reason for thinking that breaking the interconnect length into two sections obviates whatever detrimental sonic effect may result from a continuous 17 meter balanced interconnect?

 

[Ron Resnick]

This is the single pair of interconnects layout:

 

[Folsom]

No, I have not thought of that. It is an interesting suggestion. What is your reason for thinking that breaking the interconnect into two sections obviates whatever detrimental sonic effect may result from a continuous 17m interconnect?

This to me is on the road to stacking peanuts. The idea he is getting at is simply avoiding long runs. But runs from a TT or DAC are not meant to be long because a TT has almost no driving force, and DAC's typically are not great.

If anything you could split the interconnect with a buffer, were you truly worried or getting pour results. But I think a buffer near the bass towers is sufficient to maintain integrity of your distinct goals.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Mainly because it is something that adds a sound signature to the system, and little is known about it. It is like adding a line transformer with a step ratio of 1/4 - probably it would also solve your problem, but only trying we could know of its consequences - we do not know if the gain of the crossover could compensate for the attenuation.

You are designing a system from start - IMHO you should not consider patches and tinkers from start!

Also IMHO you should use the same balanced ICs and surely low capacitance ones, considering total length. And yes, if you like the VTL preamplfier sound it would solve all problems.

It would be nice if you could post a sketch on how you intend to connect your system - I am not sure anymore!

I am inclined to agree. I do not like the idea of tinkering from the get-go.

 

[ddk]

This to me is on the road to stacking peanuts. The idea he is getting at is simply avoiding long runs. But runs from a TT or DAC are not meant to be long because a TT has almost no driving force, and DAC's typically are not great.

If anything you could split the interconnect with a buffer, were you truly worried or getting pour results. But I think a buffer near the bass towers is sufficient to maintain integrity of your distinct goals.

It's a pass through we bi-amped Lamms many times this way but we uses the same amps so change of sound but things will be affected in this case.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) scientific proof? no. but 'zeel' cable passes the smell test.

IMHO they did not fully pass. If 50 ohm cables passed it, all 50 ohms would sound the same. But from my experience the several brands I tried sounded different, although most of them were high quality 50 ohm cables.

In research laboratories we use a lot of brands of 50 ohm cables and we always get the same result, independently of the brand of cable selected - but we do not evaluate them subjectively!

 

[microstrip]

This is the single pair of interconnects layout:

Since the Callisto has two sets of outputs why not picking setup #1? And then perhaps using a buffer immediately after the preamplfiier, in-line with the active speaker?

 

[Pb Blimp]

Mainly because it is something that adds a sound signature to the system, and little is known about it. It is like adding a line transformer with a step ratio of 1/4 - probably it would also solve your problem, but only trying we could know of its consequences - we do not know if the gain of the crossover could compensate for the attenuation.

You are designing a system from start - IMHO you should not consider patches and tinkers from start!

Agreed.

The buffers I use only improve sound. They don't impart anything, but instead make equipment be driven correctly so that you get clearer sound. In no way what so ever would I ever think of buffers as a compromising patch if it is up to snuff.

I understand well how a buffer will improve the impedance problem but I don't understand (even a little) your bolded statement. This seems counterintuitive and subjective at best.


Ron, at the level you are playing I would do what I could to cut the distance and still achieve your isolation goal. Maybe seek out an off the shelf sound proof enclosure to be used inside the room for TT and Phono if you feel this is critical. You can AB with and without and if you like the improvement have something attractive made to work in your room.

 

[Tango]

My dear Ron likes to do a tripple twist with a flip.

Tang

 

[dan31]

No, I have not thought of that. It is an interesting suggestion.

What is your reason for thinking that breaking the interconnect length into two sections obviates whatever detrimental sonic effect may result from a continuous 17 meter balanced interconnect?

It’s the long length of the ic where the total capacitance will end up being detrimental. If your ic has 20 pf/ft and you’re running 50 feet that’s 1000 pf. If you only have 1 meter from the tt/arm to the Io phono that’s best. The Io will amplify the signal to line level of several volts so the Io can then manage the run to the preamp. Once the preamp receives the signal from your Io it will start fresh and attenuate or amplify to the bass towers and/or the VTL amps over a reduced distance than the original 50+ feet.

I like ddk’s room set up with the sources near the back and the preamp down the wall and then a run to the amps. It’s worth a try before buying mega expensive cable. I would experiment with some balanced canare xlr and then decide which layout you prefer before buying all that masterbuilt ultra.

 

[Folsom]

Agreed.



I understand well how a buffer will improve the impedance problem but I don't understand (even a little) your bolded statement. This seems counterintuitive and subjective at best.


Ron, at the level you are playing I would do what I could to cut the distance and still achieve your isolation goal. Maybe seek out an off the shelf sound proof enclosure to be used inside the room for TT and Phono if you feel this is critical. You can AB with and without and if you like the improvement have something attractive made to work in your room.

Most Phono and DAC devices have poor driving sections. They're capable of mostly driving the signal they want to output, but unless the component at the other end is near the perfect load, they fall a bit short usually. When you insert a buffer that is good, it is a much better load that is impartial to the deficiencies in pretty much all outputs from sources and certain types of preamps (especially those with gain or tubes, where as non-gain active ones are typically a buffer themselves - with volume & selector). A buffer has a separate power supply so it has zero dependence for stability of power like a DAC's output section does from the whole component. This is a critical thing when we start talking about things like linear distortions that are super sensitive to power supplies, and thermal changes.

So the result is that more often than not a buffer can drive the amp correctly, to a much finer definition of what the source material actually happens to be. This translates to slightly improved sound. The buffer didn't add anything, it just maintained existing signal better. This can be measured, but I believe the fact that it sounds better is more notable. I've read people claiming their buffer is 100% invisible to the experience... so why use it at all? Either it sounds better or it does not. There's no reason to use one out of superstition. The only reason I can see to use one aside from the small boost in quality of signal you get (which is audible), is to maybe save tubes from burning out if for some reason you kept going through tubes working too hard on a preamp.

I would note that the challenge of questioning the possibility of sonic changes being imbued onto the signal with a preamp that has a buffer inside, isn't a fair parallel to asking the same question with just a pure buffer. The reason is that volume devices are often the most guilty part in any stereo for sonic imbuement, and I'm not talking about cheap stuff either.

Believe me, I know why you're saying it's hard to understand how something that imparts no sonic attributes, can sound different... I've seen discussions go in circles. But for most people it isn't too complicated to understand the difference between sonic attributes, and improved signal integrity. One sounds like there's something new to the mix, the other sounds like the same thing but more complete. Another way to state is that you don't change the character, but you get more definition when the driving signal isn't as sloppy. In no way would I call this tinkering. That simply is nonsense. The real worst possibility if you aren't fooling around with junk, is that you don't notice it being in the stereo at all.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

IMHO they did not fully pass. If 50 ohm cables passed it, all 50 ohms would sound the same. But from my experience the several brands I tried sounded different, although most of them were high quality 50 ohm cables.

which 50 ohm cables did you consider 'high quality'? and who designed the 50 ohm inputs and 50 ohm outputs?

In research laboratories we use a lot of brands of 50 ohm cables and we always get the same result, independently of the brand of cable selected - but we do not evaluate them subjectively!

scientific measurement evaluation is not relevant to us music listeners.

 

[microstrip]

which 50 ohm cables did you consider 'high quality'? and who designed the 50 ohm inputs and 50 ohm outputs?

Cables certified by CERN , for example, from brands such as Belden or Amphenol. We call them RG58 cables. Herve sources his cables from a known CERN supplier, it is not a secret.

scientific measurement evaluation is not relevant to us music listeners.

Surely. But the myth of perfect audio transmission of signals on 50 ohm terminated cables is based on scientific theory measurements

I always try to separate the scientific and the subjective, unless I find that they correlate. BTW, I subjectively and technically appreciate DartZeel products, but not all the marketing - perhaps because the 50 ohm terminated cables were included in our laboratory classes ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Since the Callisto has two sets of outputs why not picking setup #1? And then perhaps using a buffer immediately after the preamplfiier, in-line with the active speaker?

Because a friend of mine named microstrip advised me not to tinker with a new set-up by dropping an external buffer circuit into the set-up.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It’s the long length of the ic where the total capacitance will end up being detrimental. If your ic has 20 pf/ft and you’re running 50 feet that’s 1000 pf. If you only have 1 meter from the tt/arm to the Io phono that’s best. The Io will amplify the signal to line level of several volts so the Io can then manage the run to the preamp. Once the preamp receives the signal from your Io it will start fresh and attenuate or amplify to the bass towers and/or the VTL amps over a reduced distance than the original 50+ feet.

I like ddk’s room set up with the sources near the back and the preamp down the wall and then a run to the amps. It’s worth a try before buying mega expensive cable. I would experiment with some balanced canare xlr and then decide which layout you prefer before buying all that masterbuilt ultra.

Are you concerned that high capacitance will roll off high frequencies?

 

[microstrip]

Because a friend of mine named microstrip advised me not to tinker with a new set-up by dropping an external buffer circuit into the set-up.

I was mainly addressing setup #1 versus setup #2, independently of brands.

And not discarding that pressed between the Callista + buffer or VTL7.5 you could choose the first option!

We love playing with your system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

At least from a technical point of view it seems like the high current and low output impedance VTL 7.5 Series III would put these various concerns to rest.

 

[microstrip]

Are you concerned that high capacitance will roll off high frequencies?

It is the usual concern, but using tubes you must also think that at high frequencies impedance can be low and increase the current supplied by the preamplifier, increasing distortion. See that 2000 pf at 10 kHz has an impedance of around 8 kohm - https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tools/capacitor-impedance-calculator/. I have owned an IC (quickly discarded, as I needed a long cable) having more than 900 pf per meter !