I did move the Taiko Tana to underneath my NVS tt......and I've been listening for a few hours.
I'll bet that you are stunned.
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
I'll bet that you are stunned.
Dear Tang,
Thank you for mentioning my humble input into this terrific adventure.
Your listening space is just awesome! It will be a great pleasure to be a part of it.
I apologize for simplistic renders without the typical bling bling, but I have no time
for that, I prefer working with the real matter It is the state after the first round,
but I think the homework is still not done - you will find something in the mail today
Cheers,
Thank you for mentioning my humble input into this terrific adventure.
Your listening space is just awesome! It will be a great pleasure to be a part of it.
I apologize for simplistic renders without the typical bling bling, but I have no time
for that, I prefer working with the real matter
It is the state after the first round,but I think the homework is still not done - you will find something in the mail today
Cheers,
Maybe its time to come out and join the three Muskateers
...
I did move the Taiko Tana to underneath my NVS tt......and I've been listening for a few hours.
For sure there is some change in sound. Everyone is waiting to hear your tone of response. Diplomatic means comme si comme sa
.I just love poking you Mike
.Tang
Tang, you’ll find Jarek a delight to deal with, like Peter of Symposium Acoustics who was my entry into the benefits of isolation. He’s a massive enthusiast with some very clever and thoughtful ideas, and is very customer oriented.
You’ll end up with something very fit for purpose.
You’ll end up with something very fit for purpose.
Hi David,
I would associate "dead" with a lack of dynamics and liveliness, which is the opposite of what it brings to the "table". The reason we recommend buy before you try is that panzerholz "extends" the vibration reduction bandwidth of the tablestable. A big difference with most passive platforms is the tablestable actually acts and compensates vibrations of the component sitting on top. Some turntables use material resonances to "flavour" the sound. If you counteract on or damp these resonances you remove that "flavour".
For example, adding resonances in the 125-500Hz range can add fullness or warmth to the sound. Adding resonances in the 500Hz to 2K range can increase apparent definition and bite. Above 2K you can add resonances to increase apparent presence, clarity, sparkle etc. but we're now into entering into the range where there's not enough physical airborne energy which can couple to the structural section of the turntable to significantly excite resonant nodes. You need a certain amount of energy to be able to move mass, the lower the frequency at an energy level the more mass it is able to "move". For a passive platform increasing mass is a good way to increase isolation bandwidth down in frequency range.
Isolation is of course not equivalent to damping. You would call the tablestable and isolating device, but it isn't, it is dissipating vibrational energy by producing a counter force. By adding the panzerholz topplate we did not increase the isolation bandwidth but added damping to extend the isolation of the tablestable.
The active correction is very effective up till around ~40Hz where it can attenuate vibrations up to ~50dB, performance then rolls off to around ~-6dB from around 150-200Hz at which point it's acting as a strictly passive isolating/damping device up till around 1KHz.
The panzerholz is roughly doubling the total tablestable damping performance from ~150-1000Hz and extends the damping range to well over 2K.
At this point it may be useful to explain why we're going through the trouble of using panzerholz. It's not being used much, I suspect, because it's a nightmare for machining tools, it eats CNC tools for breakfast and likes to have a few more before lunch too, literally! It's also very expensive and is usually build to order, the combination of which leads to low default stocks.
The numbers of interest here are damping factor (actual damping), transmissibility (how well sound is transported through the material) and frequency (properties vary by frequency magnitude).
For Panzerholz, the damping factor at 200Hz is ~0.7, the transmissibility is ~1.5, at 1000Hz the damping factor is ~0.9, transmissibility is ~1.
Now lets compare this to some other materials, lower damping factor is lower damping, higher transmissibility is better transmissibility, listing 200Hz only:
Wood:
Walnut: DF 0.01, T 50
Oak: DF 0.01, T 27
Pine: DF 0.06, T 11
MDF: DF 0.02, T 42
Plyboard: DF 0.04, T 18
Cork: DF 0.1, T 6
Metal:
Aluminium: DF 0.004, T 177
Copper: DF 0.01, T 71
Steel: DF 0.08, T 88
Lead: DF 0.03, T 22
Various commonly used material:
Carbon Fibre: DF 0.06, T 12
Marble: DF 0.01, T 80
Slate: DF 0.02, T 42
Rubber: DF 0.3, T 2.5
Sorbothane: DF 0.2, T 4
Just for fun:
Vinyl record: DF 0.02, T 35
Vinyl record on bare metal platform: DF 0.05, T 13
Vinyl record on bare metal platform with platter mat: DF 0.12, T 6
Vinyl record as above with record clamp: DF 0.1, T 7
As you can see Panzerholz has some unique properties which make it very interesting for hifi applications. Unfortunately its not used much, the few companies I am aware of are Kaiser Acoustics, Lessloss, Clearaudio and us ofcourse!
Disclaimer: I am not a native English speaker so I had to translate some technical Dutch terms into English, hopefully I got everything right.
Taiko, so checking against yr list, the next best materials that gets closest to Panzerholz is rubber, cork and vinyl.
Really?
Really?
Photo of an AVI-200:
After you've loaded the AVI's you have to manually adjust the springs (left & right arrows) so that the platform is "floating" between the "stops" (up and down arrows). If you disable active correction it's easy to see you now have a passive platform sitting on springs.
For passive platforms you have a resonance frequency, for the AVI-200 this will be somewhere in the vicinity of 8Hz (the frequency will vary slightly depending on mounted platform, mass loading etc).
What this means is:
-Below 8Hz its a passthrough
-At 8Hz it will amplify
-Above 8Hz it will damp/isolate
If you enable active isolation it will fully compensate its resonance frequency, this is something ONLY active correction can do, you cannot break the laws of nature passively, and it will greatly increase and extend damping from below 1Hz to over 100Hz.
Now despite the AVI's having the exact same motors, sensors and technology inside, they do not quite reach the same performance level of the integrated units, however this, I'm sure, is due to the superior rigidity of the cast iron case encompassing the whole system in the TS line. Do not underestimate the rigidity of the platform and structure required to get stable Low Frequency performance. 1" thick aluminium is the BARE minimum here.
On the other hand it has some advantages too, it's slightly cheaper, the controller and power supplies are in external enclosure, you can also get an external controller which can power multiple AVI's at minimal upcharge. There's an external sensor option (LFE-3) which can increase ULF isolation to beyond what a TS can do (in theory). And I think it even has a LPS inside in stead of a SMPS.
We did however not manage to quite get the AVI to perform at the same level of the TS series.
But Taiko, your Panzerholz has a DF of 0.7 and T of 1.5.
Based on those figures, those compliant materials do seem to be the closest ie rubber DF 0.3 T 2.5.
Based on those figures, those compliant materials do seem to be the closest ie rubber DF 0.3 T 2.5.
Maybe its time to come out and join the three Muskateers
I asked David who is kind enough to collaborate with Jarek for a total solution of my Thor's Hammer. Jarek now has all design principles from David and also my requirements. It is a three tiers rack. High mass probably more than 400 lbs, functional oriented, no nonsenses. Second tier has Stacore Advance for my phono. The lowest tier is for the motor control. Active antivibe never enter my mind for this super heavy Hammer from the start. My listening room is also L-shape and the Hammer will be placed at the far right leg of L. Picture might better explain.
View attachment 37510
We just decided that the rack shall be no taller than 86 cm. Other design details and Jarek's secret sauce will be upto Jarek. Jarek can respond shall there be any questions. I dont know if this thread is appropriate. Here are some early rendering of the rack from Jarek.
View attachment 37511
View attachment 37512
View attachment 37513
Pls dont ask me about pricing. I only agreed with Jarek on pricing principals. In fact, we still dont know how much it will be.
Just to let you guys know Jarek has been working on his rack that incorporates his Stacore platform for general purpose. My rack is spec specifically for the AS so the structure could be different. Hope Jarek is not upset me showing his prototye.
Isnt this great we have different ways approaching the endgame tt.
Kind regards,
Tang
beautiful room Tang. congrats. How do you get behind your equipment rack?
Being non "stiff" and "compressible" makes them behave very different to "stiff" materials. They behave more like a spring.
Maybe its time to come out and join the three Muskateers
I asked David who is kind enough to collaborate with Jarek for a total solution of my Thor's Hammer. Jarek now has all design principles from David and also my requirements. It is a three tiers rack. High mass probably more than 400 lbs, functional oriented, no nonsenses. Second tier has Stacore Advance for my phono. The lowest tier is for the motor control. Active antivibe never enter my mind for this super heavy Hammer from the start....
Congratulations Tango. You have an incredible collection of tables and what little we see of your room looks wonderful. I second the suggestion to start a virtual system page.
When you say that active antivibe never entered your mind and that Stacore is designing a stand for your new AS turntable, my first thought was that the top shelf was going to be pneumatic isolation like Jarek's other platforms. Do you consider pneumatic solutions active? You explain in some detail the second and third shelves design and what equipment will be placed on them. Is the top shelf going to be completely rigid and stable and a thick slab of steel?
What is your opinion of the carbon steel plate on top of the AVI units such as I have ordered for my Nano Damp NDW workstation ?
Peter, I’m surmising that Jarek has stuck to David’s design brief of absolutely static, inert, bombproof platforms for tt and motor controller, ie top and bottom shelves.
Only the middle shelf accommodates a Stacore Adv platform for Tango’s phono.
Only the middle shelf accommodates a Stacore Adv platform for Tango’s phono.
Tang gave his first clue here http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Jp-GMP-8000-tt&p=474998&viewfull=1#post474998
Structural integrity / stifness is most important here, if it bends or warps you lose much if not all of the benefits. What is the thickness / who is supplying this? If either herzan or tablestable are supplying it you can rest easy as they know whats required.
Ked, Tang just can’t help himself. There is no cure.
Other than switching wholesale to digital.
Other than switching wholesale to digital.
Herzan engineers picked and supplied the plate which is 36"x25"x3/8".
I suppose I could add a Panzerholtz bread board on top of the steel plate down the road if that is determined to be the optimal surface material.
I would be concerned that the sheer weight of the sheet metal will result in bending if it is only 3/8" thick
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