Introspection and hyperbole control

[Ron Resnick]

What else can we expect from an equipment report about an amp stand?

I think it is reasonable to expect some comparison of some sort.

 

[Steve Williams]

The reality is how many of us start off with one uber expensive rack and move to another. IMHO....None!!!

I agree about Al's comment but TBH I feel it is truly nitpicking

I own the rack and IMO it is everything that Harley describes as does Valin in a separate review. I personally have made similar comments here. Mea culpa. So shoot me

 

[PeterA]

The reality is how many of us start off with one uber expensive rack and move to another. IMHO....None!!!

I agree about Al's comment but TBH I feel it is truly nitpicking

I own the rack and IMO it is everything that Harley describes as does Valin in a separate review. I personally have made similar comments here. Mea culpa. So shoot me

You are not a professional reviewer Steve and so are not held to the same standard, though we do hang on many of your system thread posts and they are most enjoyable and informative.

I just read the review. He does describe how the sound improves compared to having the amps directly on the floor. The comment section following the review is also interesting. There seems to be a disconnect between Harley and his on line readership.

 

[Al M.]

I like Robert personally,

Me too.

and I personally think CMS stands are fantastic and I would not hesitate to buy them,

haven't heard them but have no problem accepting the idea that they really are great.

but I agree with you that all this review tells us is that CMS amp stands are better than no amp stands.

Yes, and the CMS amp stands deserve a better review. This may be one of those cases where the manufacturer actually would have been happy about proper comparisons.

 

[Al M.]

And what does "...disappear more completely." even mean? It either disappears, or it does not. Kind of like being pregnant.

lol

 

[Folsom]

My curiosity is peaked, a shootout between racks. But while I'm not so sure it's hyperbole, it's certainly a sad comparison. Many members here have different small platforms just for amps; and I suspect all but one use them because of an audible improvement.

 

[MadFloyd]

And what does "...disappear more completely." even mean? It either disappears, or it does not. Kind of like being pregnant.

No, no, no. You become pregnant, but then you become even MORE pregnant over time. Full break-in takes 9 months.

 

[the sound of Tao]

No, no, no. You become pregnant, but then you become even MORE pregnant over time. Full break-in takes 9 months.

Lol. So if you don't use your pregnancy for a while do you have to break it in again from scratch next time or will the next one break in faster?

 

[microstrip]

I think it is reasonable to expect some comparison of some sort.

IMHO it would be a risky, unfair and misleading comparison, as most comparisons made in reviews. I have three types of racks in my listening room and they influence sound in completely different ways according to the equipment I put on them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

while I don't view Harley's recent reviews as much more than advertising, I think any time we see a review on a tweak (and a rack is a tweak IMHO) we have to allow quite a bit of latitude for different approaches and take them as they are. any feedback on a tweak is one more data point.

I'm more interested in what racks reviewers use than any feedback on them. the fact they choose them when they could us anything matters to me, according to how familiar I might be with their overall writing and views.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I would think that one could actually write a lot in an amplifier stand review. Does the stand effect different frequencies differently? Does it isolate the component making it immune from floor borne vibrations, or does it couple the component to the floor and act as a conduit helping to drain energy away from the sensitive circuits? Is it equally effective with tube and SS amps? From what little is posted, it sounds like a lazy effort. I'll click on the link to read more.
(...)

Peter,

No one knows properly how and why these stands affect the performance of electronic equipment - even the manufacturers of known quality racks and stands write meaningless long essays that do not address your questions, and most often try to disguise the more relevant technical information. How can we expect that an audio reviewer, that is not a mechanical engineer or vibration expert, can address your interesting questions?

Our knowledge on this subject is just empirical. Everyone could write nice words about turntable and tube equipment isolation - but once someone puts a solid state device on a stand we are shown we are mainly guessing in the desert.

 

[Barry2013]

IMHO it would be a risky, unfair and misleading comparison, as most comparisons made in reviews. I have three types of racks in my listening room and they influence sound in completely different ways according to the equipment I put on them.

Thanks microstrip.
Would it be too much to ask you to elaborate on your experience with your three different racks?
I would find it interesting as I am sure many others would.
As Mike says data points are always welcome.

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi Mike

I agree about stands as a tweak. So also is your Herzan I agree about data points

You were at my house two weeks ago and heard my CMS racks. You also heard my system a few years ago without the racks so granted the time between. IIRC you said several times while listening about how deep you can hear into the music. Maybe you didn't like them but IMO for my ear and my room size these racks have brought my system to a level that frankly startled me. My room is dead quiet but it is far from a dead room. So as both you and I have discovered and coming at it from different approaches "tweaks" can work. You heard my data point Mike and I heard yours. It's spooky when you experience it. I felt it at your place and I would bet you felt the same at my house a few weeks ago.

The difference as I see it is having each component on its own dedicated filter or stacking them on the Herzan

 

[Al M.]

Hi Mike

I agree about stands as a tweak. So also is your Herzan I agree about data points

You were at my house two weeks ago and heard my CMS racks. You also heard my system a few years ago without the racks so granted the time between. IIRC you said several times while listening about how deep you can hear into the music. Maybe you didn't like them but IMO for my ear and my room size these racks have brought my system to a level that frankly startled me. My room is dead quiet but it is far from a dead room. So as both you and I have discovered and coming at it from different approaches "tweaks" can work. You heard my data point Mike and I heard yours. It's spooky when you experience it. I felt it at your place and I would bet you felt the same at my house a few weeks ago.

The difference as I see it is having each component on its own dedicated filter or stacking them on the Herzan

Tweaks can work big time. I can easily believe you that the stands make a big difference. My beef was not with the CMS stands but with the review. CMS themselves probably would have hoped for a better review.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike

I agree about stands as a tweak. So also is your Herzan I agree about data points

You were at my house two weeks ago and heard my CMS racks. You also heard my system a few years ago without the racks so granted the time between. IIRC you said several times while listening about how deep you can hear into the music. Maybe you didn't like them but IMO for my ear and my room size these racks have brought my system to a level that frankly startled me. My room is dead quiet but it is far from a dead room. So as both you and I have discovered and coming at it from different approaches "tweaks" can work. You heard my data point Mike and I heard yours. It's spooky when you experience it. I felt it at your place and I would bet you felt the same at my house a few weeks ago.

The difference as I see it is having each component on its own dedicated filter or stacking them on the Herzan

hi Steve,

it's been a crazy 2+ weeks since I visited and I meant to post my very positive comments on your system, and a few pictures too.....sorry I'm late with that. was out of town again last week, and busy at work. just catching my breath now.

I was absolutely impressed with what heard in your room, and felt there was exceptional body and dimensionality to the sound, a very 'hear into and around' sort of sound likely related to your cables and racks. I think overall a much more refined sound now than my recollection of my prior visit. I enjoyed it and wished I had more time to spend with you. it was a last minute open few hours from a business meeting, and I'm so glad you had time for me. thanks.

system tuning is such a huge deal and musical involvement is so connected to it. and really.......it's not a place, but a pathway with no end I can see. just when I think I'm there, another door of opportunity opens up......to those who are seekers. and it's something open to anyone regardless of level of investment, assuming one is committed and open minded. there are spendy tweaks, but also DIY tweaks which can take one far.

 

[Steve Williams]

system tuning is such a huge deal and musical involvement is so connected to it. and really.......it's not a place, but a pathway with no end I can see. just when I think I'm there, another door of opportunity opens up......to those who are seekers. and it's something open to anyone regardless of level of investment, assuming one is committed and open minded. there are spendy tweaks, but also DIY tweaks which can take one far.

Absolutely dead on Mike.

That's why I used the word "spooky" to describe my experience when I installed the racks and changed the cables. I remember when I was at your house with Marty and Russ and I was in your chair the feeling I had when I listened. To wit when you gave that demo on tape of the Doors Riders On The Storm I was "spooked" as it was so damn good. So just when ione thinks they have reached the end another pathway and door is opened. At some point I do think it becomes a matter of the Law of Diminishing Returns and one truly reaches nirvana.

The only mantra that I practice when I evaluate a new piece of equipment is asking myself over and over "is this something better or merely something different and if it is better, then how so"

Thank you BTW for the kind words. It is always so good to see you even if the visits are short. For me my data points are those who come visit and give their impressions as I am never to old to learn. Your opinions have always been a learning experience for me.

 

[opus112]

Al, I agree with you. And what does "...disappear more completely." even mean? It either disappears, or it does not.

ISTM there are indeed degrees of disappearance of speakers. Just as there are trimesters in pregnancy.

In my experience of designing amps often the hardest part to achieve the disappearing trick on is the HF. So often an amp 'smears' HF material - the subjective effect of the additional distortion is an audible percept which seems to emanate from the tweeter itself rather than from within the recorded space.

 

[stehno]

Here is another hyperbole alert:

Review: Critical Mass Systems Maxxum Amplifier Stand

Why does it count as hyperbole? Because the reviewer, Robert Harley, did not include any comparisons with other amp stands. He only says: "Specifically, moving the power amplifiers from the floor to the Maxxum stands caused the system to disappear more completely." And then he goes on about the other virtues.

This is not a valid comparison. Most amplifiers benefit from being lifted off the floor. How does the Critical Mass Systems stand compare to a stand costing 5 or 10 x less? And by the way, which kind of floor are we talking about?

Of course, Critical Mass Systems have been reported positively on many times, also by our own Steve Williams, but this does not excuse such sloppy comparisons (floor vs. stand) for a review.

Especially when the reviewer's conclusion is: "And in a full-blown reference-class system, the Critical Mass Systems amplifier stands are an absolute necessity."

Wow. Really? So any other high-priced stand options don't possibly qualify either?

I'm no fan of Harley as I perceive him little more than a shill and/or sell-out these days.

Nevertheless, Al M, just reading your own words about Harley's review and not reading the review, I saw nothing hyperbolic about Harley's claims. If anything, it seems your post was little more than an exaggeration.

There is no rule that demands one make comparisons when issuing a claim about a product's performance. Nor does the lack of comparison deem a claim to be hyperbolic. If that was a requirement then the first phonograph review must be invalid or hyperbolic because there were no other phonographs avaiable in which to compare.

If a comparison was a requirement, then the floor, good, bad, or ugly could be considered a comparison since some indeed use the floor as their stands / racking system. Yes, there is potential of improved performance of a component when raised off the floor but the same goes with cables and passive line conditioners too as I've witnessed such improvements myself. Some might speculate that electrstatic electricity in the carpet induces the sonic harm.

To the contrary, and though I've not tried it, I've no doubt that under ideal circumstances and a superior execution with the components making direct contact with the sub-flooring (by-passing carpet, etc) the floor has the absolute potential of being the ultimate performance-oriented stand / racking system. I won't bother explaining because it would make no sense to those who adhere to the vibration isolation methodology. But I digress.

Nevertheless, Harley was under no obligation to provide a comparison between stands. But good, bad, or ugly, Harley did offer a comparison between his floor and the CMS racking system and then listed other virtues. Which you call invalid because to you Harley offered no comparision.

You may not have liked Harley's (limited?) review but it seems to me if anybody is in danger here of making hyperbolic statements, it isn't Harley. Moreover, since you were not there and Harley was, it's not Harley who's in danger of making invalid claims here.

 

[bonzo75]

This is an example of a rack compare http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/accessories-reviews/artesania-exoteryc-audiorack-part-2/

 

[BruceD]

This is an example of a rack compare http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/accessories-reviews/artesania-exoteryc-audiorack-part-2/

Ha--First One I can recall switching components between shelves and being able to discern audible differences --damn good hearing --hmmm

Some rack alright though to expound such fervour--need a deep pocket

£15K

BruceD