System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

[PeterA]

There's plenty of horror stories about all kinds of equipment from all kinds of manufacturers. I hope you don't think what you wrote was anywhere close to a true stereotype wrt direct sales companies' products. For every story like that there are many more that turn out good. And as far as resale, it's just not an issue for many manufacturers' gear. My cables have had no problem selling for a reasonable price, Omega speakers and Odyssey gear retains value better than most gear sold through dealers. There's a huge long list of gear from direct manufacturers that sells used for more than you'd expect and will hold it's value better than gear bought from dealers. Just like anything else, the customer is required to do their due diligence or risk wasting money. So, while I feel bad for your friend I hope you don't think that's how it always is with manufacturers who do direct sales... but unfortunately, it's obvious you do or you wouldn't have wrote what you did. Just another point in favor of me going through dealers in the future...

No, DaveC. I do not hope what I wrote is anywhere close to a true stereotype. It is just one specific example in response to Blizzards post to me. I just used one example to indicate to Blizzard that some of my learning has been through listening and not to just dealer networked brands but also to some direct sale manufacturers in comparison to dealer brands. Nothing more than that. I have made no assumptions about direct sale gear. This story is somewhat tragic but I did not mean to infer that I think all direct sale brands will treat customers the same way. Communication and customer service are very important regardless of whether or not one sells direct.

There are risks with many brands and businesses. Yes, the customer needs to do his due diligence and yes, there are plenty of horror stories on all sides in this industry.

 

[PeterA]

Yes I understand the downsides to both buying through dealers and direct sales. This is why education is the key. It's also why I make threads like this. Most direct sales companies offer a 30 day trial period. If it's not what you expected, simply return.

Agreed, but that was not the point of my response to you. Perhaps it was missed. You suggested to me in your post to me that those who learn by doing (listening) also need to compare products sold directly by the manufacturers. My post is an indication that I have done that and compared direct sale products to dealer sold products. I shared a specific experience I had. There are others, but that is a distraction. I did not like the sound of the cable as much as the others, and the customer service and communication were not good either. But this can occur everywhere and education is key as you say. One way some of us learn is through listening. That is my point. You can try to tell me how and what to listen to, if you want. I may or may not follow your advice. Reading and inspecting the products also helps.

 

[PeterA]

Yes I understand the downsides to both buying through dealers and direct sales. This is why education is the key. It's also why I make threads like this. Most direct sales companies offer a 30 day trial period. If it's not what you expected, simply return.

That is usually a good policy. Simply returning for a complete refund sounds great and usually works out splendidly... EDITED OUT...DaveC has a point. He may find more success through a dealer network. Time will tell. There are lots of different approaches to sales.

 

[RBFC]

That is usually a good policy. Simply returning for a complete refund sounds great and usually works out splendidly. However, I know of instances where money was paid before shipping the product and when asked for a refund, all sorts of problems and delays ensued. Surely not typical, but it can happen. DaveC has a point. He may find more success through a dealer network. Time will tell. There are lots of different approaches to sales.

Can not a higher purpose of a forum like WBF be to hold up in high regard both dealerships and direct-sales companies that have performed well? Instead of talking vaguely (and making generalizations, which is frowned upon in the TOS), truly pass along concise information to the membership. While the "sound" of various components and accessories may or may not be to everyone's liking, certainly the presence of competent build quality and good customer service are universal concerns.

Lee

 

[PeterA]

Can not a higher purpose of a forum like WBF be to hold up in high regard both dealerships and direct-sales companies that have performed well? Instead of talking vaguely (and making generalizations, which is frowned upon in the TOS), truly pass along concise information to the membership. While the "sound" of various components and accessories may or may not be to everyone's liking, certainly the presence of competent build quality and good customer service are universal concerns.

Lee

Thank you for your comment Lee. I have edited out the vague comment about service and communication. Specifics, as you suggest I include might be too off topic and could derail the thread. They might also perhaps damage my friend's efforts to sell his gear and potentially damage the direct sales manufacturer, so I did not want to go there, and instead simply wanted to make my point. I simply wanted to indicate that a 30-day trial period can be great, but there are potential risks involved too. Leaving it at that is also vague. But your criticism is noted.

Please feel free, as a moderator, to edit my quoted passage in your post #172 to reflect the same.

 

[RBFC]

I did not post in green because my comments were my personal opinion and suggestion, not "law". Your comments violated no rules, so thankfully I could just enjoy the forum! It seems like we've had more than our share of food fights here recently and I hoped that we could take a more constructive approach in the future.

Lee

 

[Blizzard]

That is usually a good policy. Simply returning for a complete refund sounds great and usually works out splendidly... EDITED OUT...DaveC has a point. He may find more success through a dealer network. Time will tell. There are lots of different approaches to sales.

I'll make a blanket answer to your original post, because that's what you really meant to say.

"This is why education is the key"

If you think some salesman holding your hand and walking you through the process is an equal substitute, then you will deal with the repercussions. This holds true whether buying online from direct sales manufacturers, or walking into a dealership. Every direction you look in this world, no matter what your buying, there's a pack of hungry wolves looking for a sucker. Education is your only defence.

 

[PeterA]

I'll make a blanket answer to your original post, because that's what you really meant to say.

"This is why education is the key"

If you think some salesman holding your hand and walking you through the process is an equal substitute, then you will deal with the repercussions. This holds true whether buying online from direct sales manufacturers, or walking into a dealership. Every direction you look in this world, no matter what your buying, there's a pack of hungry wolves looking for a sucker. Education is your only defence.

Actually DaveC wrote that he may get good results by selling through a dealership. I wrote that "time will tell" meaning that it is not yet clear which sales model will serve him best. I am not making any recommendation to DaveC. I wrote what I really meant to write. To be even more specific, the majority of my current and past gear was not bought through some salesman who held my hand and walked me through the process. I don't know where you got that from. Dealers can certainly be helpful and I have learned from them. Yes, education is key, and hand holding is no substitute for that. But I have also educated myself to some extent when possible and in my own ways, and it seems to have served me well. Thanks.

Oh, and education is one defense, but it is not the only defense.

If you want to continue to discuss sales models rather than your $10K system on your own thread and forum, that is fine. I have veered the discussion a bit of topic, and for that, I apologize.

 

[Blizzard]

Actually DaveC wrote that he may get good results by selling through a dealership. I wrote that "time will tell" meaning that it is not yet clear which sales model will serve him best. I am not making any recommendation to DaveC. I wrote what I really meant to write. To be even more specific, the majority of my current and past gear was not bought through some salesman who held my hand and walked me through the process. I don't know where you got that from. Dealers can certainly be helpful and I have learned from them. Yes, education is key, and hand holding is no substitute for that. But I have also educated myself to some extent when possible and in my own ways, and it seems to have served me well. Thanks.

Oh, and education is one defense, but it is not the only defense.

If you want to continue to discuss sales models rather than your $10K system on your own thread and forum, that is fine. I have veered the discussion a bit of topic, and for that, I apologize.

The thing is when a manufacturer has a product, selling it through a dealer doesn't make the product any better. It just makes it 2-3x more expensive. By making the decision to pay 2-3x more for the product, what your receiving in return is the luxury of being able to listen to it setup locally, with the guidance of a dealer. So what the manufacturer needs to decide is whether to go through a dealer/distribution network and have more exposure, or offer people the product for a much better price selling direct. If the client is educated enough, he can end up with equal sounding systems either way, only difference is he will spend 2-3x less buying from a direct sales manufacturer.

This is the bottom line, and all there is to it. Both business models are flawed in my view, which is why I discussed an alternative on another thread.

 

[treitz3]

If the client is educated enough, he can end up with equal sounding systems either way, only difference is he will spend 2-3x less buying from a direct sales manufacturer.

This depends, of course, on how much gear one goes through to find what it is they are looking for. Spec's and measurements may provide an insight as to what something sounds like but it is not the bottom line, be all and end all of good sound.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

This depends, of course, on how much gear one goes through to find what it is they are looking for. Spec's and measurements may provide an insight as to what something sounds like but it is not the bottom line, be all and end all of good sound.

Tom

Dealers also offer services besides handholding, but those have not been brought up yet. The key for me is proper set up and system component matching. But then, "if the customer is educated enough", sure he can do it all on his own. Depending on what exactly one means by "enough", he could also build his own system for even less than the direct sales manufacturers that would compete and perhaps be superior. One can always support his argument with enough qualifications. In the end, the market usually answers these questions.

 

[RBFC]

One can also add the warranty service and on-site repairs that good dealers provide. I had an issue with the diamond tweeter on my 801D and the dealer came to my home & replaced it. Zero hassle does carry value.

Lee

 

[Blizzard]

This depends, of course, on how much gear one goes through to find what it is they are looking for. Spec's and measurements may provide an insight as to what something sounds like but it is not the bottom line, be all and end all of good sound.

Tom

Yes one advantage to the dealer experience. They will have a wide variety to choose from for you demo. But this comes at a cost.

 

[Blizzard]

Dealers also offer services besides handholding, but those have not been brought up yet. The key for me is proper set up and system component matching. But then, "if the customer is educated enough", sure he can do it all on his own. Depending on what exactly one means by "enough", he could also build his own system for even less than the direct sales manufacturers that would compete and perhaps be superior. One can always support his argument with enough qualifications. In the end, the market usually answers these questions.

I've also ran into dealers on a regular basis who are clueless on how to setup gear properly. They are more educated in how to land sales than the actual product they are selling. I never go into any store to buy anything blind. I always research thoroughly before I go in anywhere. What usually happens is I end up teaching the salesmen more about the product they are selling than they even knew. I find this is an effective way to not get ripped off.

Learning something the wrong way is far worse than not knowing at all. It takes far more effort to reverse the damage and relearn the right way.

 

[Blizzard]

One can also add the warranty service and on-site repairs that good dealers provide. I had an issue with the diamond tweeter on my 801D and the dealer came to my home & replaced it. Zero hassle does carry value.

Lee

Yes if they know how to do that. But there's solutions to that problem for direct sellers as well. You just have to assign a designated service centre educated how to repair your complete product in every major city you do business. Also designing the product for easy no brainer repair help's with this as well.

If you build the product smart enough, these repairs could even be done onsite at the clients home. Any speaker related issue is super easy to fix.

 

[amirm]

Mike, vast majority of high-end products are sold through dealers. And some of those dealers are dear members of our forum. Let's not keep talking in negative terms about them. They provide value that manufacturer and many customers require. While we are not in this business anymore, my company would routinely pack hundreds of pounds of audio gear and deliver and set up the gear for an audiophile to evaluate in their home. Then pick it all up and bring back all at no cost to the customer. Services like this, showroom to listen, and hours spent talking to audiophiles before a potential sale is not free or useless.

Regardless, the point has been made multiple times. Let's not keep repeating it.

 

[Blizzard]

Mike, vast majority of high-end products are sold through dealers. And some of those dealers are dear members of our forum. Let's not keep talking in negative terms about them. They provide value that manufacturer and many customers require. While we are not in this business anymore, my company would routinely pack hundreds of pounds of audio gear and deliver and set up the gear for an audiophile to evaluate in their home. Then pick it all up and bring back all at no cost to the customer. Services like this, showroom to listen, and hours spent talking to audiophiles before a potential sale is not free or useless.

Regardless, the point has been made multiple times. Let's not keep repeating it.

I realize this, and I understand most of the products out there are sold through dealers. And I realize there's good and bad dealers out there. I'm just explaining the pros/cons, because there's a lot of people who are afraid of dealing with direct sellers due to "fear mongering" from the giants in the industry. There's no way what I have to say on my little subforum is going to hurt the business of all the good dealerships. The facts are the companies who have the most capital to advertise, and gain the most exposure will always dominate the industry. These industry giants, will always require the services of dealerships to get their products out there. The little guys will always just be a small part of the pie.

What I'm really looking for is a better solution to the options available today from both the brick and mortar shops, and direct sales. The benefit of discussing the pros/cons is all the readers get to hear the opinions of the end users. In order to come up with a solution, the problem must be recognized first.

 

[treitz3]

The management team still stands behind what Amir has stated, Mike. We understand where you are coming from but the street goes both ways. Please adhere to his request. Thank you.

Tom

 

[Blizzard]

The management team still stands behind what Amir has stated, Mike. We understand where you are coming from but the street goes both ways. Please adhere to his request. Thank you.

Tom

Well I guess if this is the case, I can no longer continue any discussion on this thread. Because all of the products recommended are only available through direct sellers. One of the biggest obstacles people have expressed about buying the gear I've recommended in this thread is what I'm trying to find a solution for.

 

[Blizzard]

Maybe we should delete this whole thread. I'm sure many members would love to see it gone.