System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

[Blizzard]

But honestly... What have you really learned. You are reading pure fiction. Anyone can pick out and print a list of items they have never heard, make assumptions on how they sound from their parts list, and proclaim they sound great! Is that really educational? Is that really what you want? Sorry but I find his proclamations moronic...

Based on the flood of PM's I receive on a regular basis, we will have confirmation from many soon on many of the things I share.

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, good common sense: Intelligent scientific design with the best internal parts cannot hurt. I look @ the parts Mike mentioned, compared to other designs, I looked @ the links he provided, I looked @ the reasonable prices for top quality parts, I read other complaining that he never listened to the entire system put together, and neither the complainers.

This audio hobby is about exploring, be on the constant periphery of new knowledge, learning.
Mike shared his suggestions based on solid knowledge on what he knows, and it's up to us to use the tools he supplied.
It's very easy to criticize his opinion and dismiss it due to our belief that you have first to listen and compare all the systems in the world in all the rooms of the world and with all the ears of the people in the world. Obviously no one can do that, so we have to start somewhere, where Mike shares his opinion like anyone else.

I'm reading that a member said that this pair of loudspeakers are the best ones he has ever heard in that particular room with that particular setup with his own set of ears; I have to believe him because he heard them, up close and personal direct experience. But Mike no way because he showed me that the parts used inside they all come from various places and from different quality and performance and that it has no real value because he hasn't heard it in the sum of all components. Logic tells me that I can only know for sure on my own and that I'm free to believe whoever and whatever and that I am smart enough to know that life is a balance of all things relative in its proper contentment.
It's me who is free to take all the info from all and to explore on my own and make my own choice. It's me who deserves all respect to respect everyone what they have to share. It's me who make my own balance of the sum of all parts and people's own opinion based on their own set of audio criteria, it's me who @ the end is reading, analyzing, listening.

How far will we all go to explore the deepest audio truth? ...The closest personal reach to nirvana bliss? ...And the music.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Bob, good common sense: Intelligent scientific design with the best internal parts cannot hurt. I look @ the parts Mike mentioned, compared to other designs, I looked @ the links he provides, I look @ the reasonable prices for top quality parts,

I will agree what that 100% but still there is more needed to complete the entire picture. It is just not that simple as a bunch of good parts and a prayer.

And a bit of humility would be a good place for him to start. Nobody knows everything...

 

[Blizzard]

Bob, good common sense: Intelligent scientific design with the best internal parts cannot hurt. I look @ the parts Mike mentioned, compared to other designs, I looked @ the links he provides, I look @ the reasonable prices for top quality parts, I read other complaining that he never listened to all the entire system put together, and neither the complainers.

This audio hobby is about exploring, be on the constant periphery of new knowledge, learning.

Bob even if I had the complete system setup here with pictures of me listening to it with a smile on my face, they would just find some other angle to attack. All you can do it read the information provided, and come to your own conclusions if it makes sense or not. I think you are among the crowd intelligent enough to have realized this. As with most others who view my threads based on the sheer volume of PM's I receive from guys who don't want to get caught up with the trolls. Just compare the view count vs the trolling posts to get a good idea

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Bob even if I had the complete system setup here with pictures of me listening to it with a smile on my face, they would just find some other angle to attack. All you can do it read the information provided, and come to your own conclusions if it makes sense or not. I think you are among the crowd intelligent enough to have realized this. As with most others who view my threads based on the sheer volume of PM's I receive from guys who don't want to get caught up with the trolls. Just compare the view count vs the trolling posts to get a good idea

Yup... Jim Jones had lots of private messages also...

Well it is accurate IMO. but... How about Cal Worthington?

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, you are exaggerating to the extreme.

Mike is not a leader/preacher of a private sect. He is not taking advantage of the weak to benefit financially...way way way far from it...he his a genuine giver, and no cult behind him, just a normal lovely family with some of the best friends around, and living in harmony in a beautiful paradise of planet earth (I know, I lived in that valley too for twenty years, and I know some magnificent folks from that region).

P.S. Just a suggestion Bob; you should remove that video and the name attached to it...it is extremely poor taste.
It doesn't belong here, but in the "Anything Goes" section of the forum. It's not audio related, and certainly doesn't belong in Mike's section.
You agree?

 

[Blizzard]

Maybe, but the entire post was just a dig at Bliz and anyone who agrees with him, and he skillfully managed to add in a dig on Amir too... It was trolling and had no intent whatsoever to add to the discussion. Where people need to HTFU is WRT having their opinions and beliefs challenged, for example I don't get people who are annoyed with Amir. I've never seen him get personal or mean to anyone, ever. I can't see how anything he said has been insulting. I don't agree with everything but I don't see how people have a problem with it. What we don't need is a negative environment where people are mean to each other for no reason. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I try.

IMO, people are entitled to their opinion and others can judge how much weight to give it. If having unqualified opinions on the internet was a crime, 95% of the population would be in jail. Telling someone their opinion isn't valid and shouldn't be posted is over the top.

Most people have heard Accuton drivers and various ribbon tweeters, it's not hard to guess how the speaker will sound in a general way. Of course you can't make detailed evaluations, but having the opinion the speaker is a good deal for the price is within the realm of being reasonable. The speaker is a pretty darn good deal for the money and it was designed by folks who are more than just competent. That should be pretty obvious. It's certainly not the speaker I would personally choose, but that's down to my own preferences and experience hearing the drivers in question in other speakers. I'd take the Odyssey Kismet monitors or something with a softer woofer and beryllium dome tweeter, preferably in a waveguide.

edit: can I recommend you and Bliz stop posting/arguing online and in public? Not to be rude but it's not doing either of you any good...

Yes of course 1 speaker is never for everyone. There's so many great drivers and ways to build speakers out there it's insane. Sounds like you are a bigger fan of the paper cone drivers like the Scan-Speak revelator's and illuminators. I too love them as well. I also like the Scan-Speak beryllium tweeters. But the Mundorf AMT's and Raal Ribbons are also at the top of my list.

I think between all the links that have been shared on this thread so far, there's something for all tastes in around the $3-4K mark. What has been shown is, there's really no reason to spend over $4k for a world class monitor using the best of the best parts and engineering.

As for 3 way full range towers, I think we may have to break the 10K budget for full system costs, to be on the same level of quality.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Bob, you are exaggerating to the extreme.

Mike is not a leader/preacher of a private sect. He is not taking advantage of the weak to benefit financially...way way way far from it...he his a genuine giver, and no cult behind him, just a normal lovely family with some of the best friends around, and living in harmony in a beautiful paradise of planet earth (I know, I lived in that valley too for twenty years, and I know some magnificent folks from that region).

P.S. Just a suggestion Bob; you should remove that video and the name attached to it...it is extremely poor taste.
It doesn't belong here, but in the "Anything Goes" section of the forum. It's not audio related, and certainly doesn't belong in Mike's section.
You agree?

I put up a better one for you...

As I mentioned before... Nobody knows everything... And humility will get someone further than arrogance.

Here are two more videos..

 

[NorthStar]

Yeah, it's not as dramatic as Jim Jones...that guy was a total basket case, a mass murderer, a guy who took himself way too seriously, an absolute criminal.

Good comical sense of humor is easier to digest, and it doesn't hit sensitive chords. I still disagree with you though, but on a much more leveraging parallel. ...Respectable.

* I did not see Grace Jones, Nancy Grace, and neither the police of Manitowoc County though in that new replaced video. ;-)
And I like cereals...Raisin Bran.

 

[amirm]

And a bit of humility would be a good place for him to start. Nobody knows everything...

It is not your job to reform members. Move along. You have said way too much.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

It is not your job to reform members. Move along. You have said way too much.

Really Amir? I don't agree at all with you. I think Bob is right on the money.

So - it is ok for Mike to post whatever he likes it seems however personal and offensive, but the moment someone takes him to task, or he stops having the upper hand, he goes running to you, and you weigh in with the Mod hat on.

What is all that about?

How about you go moderate Mike for calling me a liar over in the Chinese dac thread. That ok with you is it? Cobber of yours is he?

Seriously one rule for Mike and one rule for the rest of us. What is he - your love child or something?

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Really Amir? I don't agree at all with you. I think Bob is right on the money.

So - it is ok for Mike to post whatever he likes it seems however personal and offensive, but the moment someone takes him to task, or he stops having the upper hand, he goes running to you, and you weigh in with the Mod hat on.

What is all that about?

How about you go moderate Mike for calling me a liar over in the Chinese dac thread. That ok with you is it? Cobber of yours is he?

Seriously one rule for Mike and one rule for the rest of us. What is he - your love child or something?

You beat me to it. I cannot fathom what he must be thinking. You are a liar, I am a stalker because I correct his misinformation... smh...

What's next the Spanish Inquisition???

 

[amirm]

Really Amir? I don't agree at all with you. I think Bob is right on the money.

Good for you. Now move along or contribute to the technical topic of the thread.

 

[amirm]

Two member's permissions have been removed from this forum.

 

[Blizzard]

I find it quite funny that these guys would be so obsessed with trashing my sub forum in the first place. After all, all I'm doing here is recommending good value audio gear. Nothing personal going on here at all. I haven't posted outside of my sub forum for days.

 

[Blizzard]

Two member's permissions have been removed from this forum.

Good. I think it was clear they had no intention making any valuable contributions.

 

[PeterA]

I suppose it depends what you're listening to. If all you ever heard was mass marketed gear, it's hard to know how they would compare against some of the top stuff from direct sales manufacturers. The key to knowing why stuff sound like it does, is knowing what went into making them.

You have a retort and qualification for everyone's comments. I see your point, but you are in the business of knowing these things. Many of us are simply trying to enjoy the hobby and we learn by listening. I have heard stuff from direct sales manufacturers.

This is just one recent example: I have spent some time listening comparing a "direct sales manufacturer's" cables to those from two or three "mass marketed" cables. Sure I learned some stuff. The sound was different and had a specific character which was easily identified. There were also problems in manufacturing and quality control. When the owner tryied to contact the direct seller to complain about faulty connections to terminations/connectors, service and response were challenging to say the least. Now, when trying to sell those direct sales cables which cost thousands of dollars, no go. They are sitting unsold, and unused. People have never heard of them, don't want them, can't service them. It's a tragic story. I appreciate what my buddy is having to deal with. It's sad and must be quite frustrating.

I'm sure there are plenty of great direct sales manufacturers. But there is also an element of risk, as there is with everything, especially if there is not a long track record. So you can criticize others for how they listen, how much research they have done about parts quality and audio science, but many are simply in the hobby to enjoy their music and learn what they can in the way they want. Much of this learning is based on empirical evidence in their listening rooms.

 

[DaveC]

You have a retort and qualification for everyone's comments. I see your point, but you are in the business of knowing these things. Many of us are simply trying to enjoy the hobby and we learn by listening. I have heard stuff from direct sales manufacturers.

This is just one recent example: I have spent some time listening comparing a "direct sales manufacturer's" cables to those from two or three "mass marketed" cables. Sure I learned some stuff. The sound was different and had a specific character which was easily identified. There were also problems in manufacturing and quality control. When the owner tryied to contact the direct seller to complain about faulty connections to terminations/connectors, service and response were challenging to say the least. Now, when trying to sell those direct sales cables which cost thousands of dollars, no go. They are sitting unsold, and unused. People have never heard of them, don't want them, can't service them. It's a tragic story. I appreciate what my buddy is having to deal with. It's sad and must be quite frustrating.

I'm sure there are plenty of great direct sales manufacturers. But there is also an element of risk, as there is with everything, especially if there is not a long track record. So you can criticize others for how they listen, how much research they have done about parts quality and audio science, but many are simply in the hobby to enjoy their music and learn what they can in the way they want. Much of this learning is based on empirical evidence in their listening rooms.

There's plenty of horror stories about all kinds of equipment from all kinds of manufacturers. I hope you don't think what you wrote was anywhere close to a true stereotype wrt direct sales companies' products. For every story like that there are many more that turn out good. And as far as resale, it's just not an issue for many manufacturers' gear. My cables have had no problem selling for a reasonable price, Omega speakers and Odyssey gear retains value better than most gear sold through dealers. There's a huge long list of gear from direct manufacturers that sells used for more than you'd expect and will hold it's value better than gear bought from dealers. Just like anything else, the customer is required to do their due diligence or risk wasting money. So, while I feel bad for your friend I hope you don't think that's how it always is with manufacturers who do direct sales... but unfortunately, it's obvious you do or you wouldn't have wrote what you did. Just another point in favor of me going through dealers in the future...

 

[FrantzM]

Somewhat related to DaveC post #165. Horror stories abound in High Enfd Audio. Whether it be of horrible delaers or manufacturers not honoring waranties ..
Caveat Emptor .
Something has to be said manufacturers of products of merit whose products are avoided because of a lack of recognition. Could be the case of a market base that is aging thus becoming increasingly conservative and risk adverse.

 

[Blizzard]

You have a retort and qualification for everyone's comments. I see your point, but you are in the business of knowing these things. Many of us are simply trying to enjoy the hobby and we learn by listening. I have heard stuff from direct sales manufacturers.

This is just one recent example: I have spent some time listening comparing a "direct sales manufacturer's" cables to those from two or three "mass marketed" cables. Sure I learned some stuff. The sound was different and had a specific character which was easily identified. There were also problems in manufacturing and quality control. When the owner tryied to contact the direct seller to complain about faulty connections to terminations/connectors, service and response were challenging to say the least. Now, when trying to sell those direct sales cables which cost thousands of dollars, no go. They are sitting unsold, and unused. People have never heard of them, don't want them, can't service them. It's a tragic story. I appreciate what my buddy is having to deal with. It's sad and must be quite frustrating.

I'm sure there are plenty of great direct sales manufacturers. But there is also an element of risk, as there is with everything, especially if there is not a long track record. So you can criticize others for how they listen, how much research they have done about parts quality and audio science, but many are simply in the hobby to enjoy their music and learn what they can in the way they want. Much of this learning is based on empirical evidence in their listening rooms.

Yes I understand the downsides to both buying through dealers and direct sales. This is why education is the key. It's also why I make threads like this. Most direct sales companies offer a 30 day trial period. If it's not what you expected, simply return.