Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

Some systems saturate/overload/soft clip (could be tape, vinyl, amplifiers) causing added distortion.

Just a FWIW, obviously you have not spent any time around an LP mastering system. They can't be overloaded, in fact the LP cutting system is the most dynamic audio process in existence, as far as I can tell. The amps typically have 10X more than what is demanded of them, and the cutterhead can cut grooves without distortion that no stylus/arm combination could hope to track. In short, and LP cuttersystem can't be overloaded. The limit is in the playback but more so with the final product rather than the lacquers. There have been recent advances in pressing operations that have eliminated most of that too- so the LP now is capable of dynamic range that rivals that of digital. It is different from tape in that regard!

(a) Do you think that this effect can be a useful substitute for extra dynamic range?
It goes on all the time in audio.

(b) Do you think that these systems may have been designed, or may have evolved, in the way they have, because of this characteristic?

I think SET amplifiers are the best example of this. Universally with all SETs you will see that they are perceived to have much more 'dynamics' than their low output power would suggest. This is caused by the distortion character of the amplifier.


(e) Would you rather have a system that was 'saturation'-free up to any volume you wanted, or one that had the characteristics of existing vinyl/tube equipment?

Existing vinyl/tube equipment can be quite 'saturation'-free up to nearly any volume you want already.
 
Just a FWIW, obviously you have not spent any time around an LP mastering system. They can't be overloaded, in fact the LP cutting system is the most dynamic audio process in existence, as far as I can tell. The amps typically have 10X more than what is demanded of them, and the cutterhead can cut grooves without distortion that no stylus/arm combination could hope to track. In short, and LP cuttersystem can't be overloaded. The limit is in the playback but more so with the final product rather than the lacquers. There have been recent advances in pressing operations that have eliminated most of that too- so the LP now is capable of dynamic range that rivals that of digital. It is different from tape in that regard!

I wasn't aware that people sometimes cut LPs without intending them to be played back!

You're right I've never set foot in a vinyl mastering/pressing plant, but just picking them out at random off the web:
Excessive high frequencies may overheat the cutting head or even clip a 1000 Watt cutting amp or give rise to distortions on playback (fig 2) forcing the cutting engineer to limit or lower the amount of top or lower the overall level.
http://foon.be/better vinyl.html

Is there anything I can do when mixing to make a better record?

Yes!

Sibilance is a common problem with the vinyl format and most cutting engineers are equipped with a variety of high frequency limiters. The best solution is de-essing in the studio.

Excessive High End from hi hats and synths as this can cause tracking problems. I sometimes get digital masters with an incredible amount of 16 to 20kHz.

Excessive Sub Bass from synths and 808’s. My experience has been that the tightest, best sounding bass for clubs occurs above 40 Hz. That doesn’t mean that some 30 Hz is bad, but an excessive amount of subs when using certain club playback cartridges causes the cartridge to resonate and skip.

Out of phase instruments can be a problem. Low frequency elements of the mix out of phase is a serious problem. This usually happens due to a wiring error. To make the record trackable a low frequency cross-over or elliptical equalizer is used. The result will be some undesirable phase cancellations. If an oscilloscope or correlation meter is not available, checking the mix in mono will result with the culprit disappearing completely (canceling itself out) in the mix if it is completely out of phase.

Center the kick drum for club mixes. With more home studios I see more masters with the kick unintentionally at 9 or 10 o’clock. That can be dealt
with in mastering using the EE but it best corrected in the studio.

Excessive amounts of 2 buss limiting and compression. There is a misconception that the record will be loud since the mix has been
squashed. Most likely the cutting engineer will lower the volume for cutting. I suggest that engineers don’t sacrifice the timbre of an
instrument for the sake of volume. Use tasteful amounts of dynamics processing.
http://www.saemastering.com/VinylMasteringFAQs.php

It is clear that what passes for incredible dynamics and realism in vinyl playback is really an exercise in limiting the dynamics and removing stereo content. If an amp/speaker combination multilated a recording that way, the Golden Ears would be sure to pick it up - except they obviously wouldn't!
 
I wasn't aware that people sometimes cut LPs without intending them to be played back!

You're right I've never set foot in a vinyl mastering/pressing plant, but just picking them out at random off the web:

http://foon.be/better vinyl.html


http://www.saemastering.com/VinylMasteringFAQs.php

It is clear that what passes for incredible dynamics and realism in vinyl playback is really an exercise in limiting the dynamics and removing stereo content. If an amp/speaker combination multilated a recording that way, the Golden Ears would be sure to pick it up - except they obviously wouldn't!

Did anybody bring popcorn?

Tim
 
I really think this thread outlived its usefulness long ago and I'm amazed it hasn't been closed down yet.
 
This thread ebbs and flows and it's been pretty good lately. I'm not a fan of the tyranny of thread continuity. Some of the best conversation happens on threads that drift around a lot.

Tim
 
This thread has been drifting around dead-end streets where people are waiting to mug you with nonsense and one-upmanship. The only thing we are missing here is for someone to say nanny nanny poo poo.
 
This thread has been drifting around dead-end streets where people are waiting to mug you with nonsense and one-upmanship. The only thing we are missing here is for someone to say nanny nanny poo poo.

Not to dwell on the small points, but that's nanny nanny boo boo, not poo poo. Just sayin'. I've found some pretty interesting info in this thread, even in the last several pages. YMMV.

Tim
 
I wasn't aware that people sometimes cut LPs without intending them to be played back!

You may have misunderstood me there or I was not clear. We often cut lacquers to get a feel for the lay of the land; the lacquers play considerably quieter ('dead silent' is a good descriptor) compared to the final LP.
You're right I've never set foot in a vinyl mastering/pressing plant, but just picking them out at random off the web: http://foon.be/better vinyl.html http://www.saemastering.com/VinylMasteringFAQs.php It is clear that what passes for incredible dynamics and realism in vinyl playback is really an exercise in limiting the dynamics and removing stereo content. If an amp/speaker combination multilated a recording that way, the Golden Ears would be sure to pick it up - except they obviously wouldn't!

It is true that you have to be careful of the head- they are very easy to damage because the amplifiers have way more power than the head could ever handle. Our stock cutter amps make 125 watts but you are going to toast the cutter if you put more than about 5-7 watts into it. There are some limitations that you encounter but IME they have mostly to do with poor recording technique, which has become more common with the advent of cheap digital recording . I have a minor beef with one comment:

Out of phase instruments can be a problem. Low frequency elements of the mix out of phase is a serious problem. This usually happens due to a wiring error. To make the record trackable a low frequency cross-over or elliptical equalizer is used.
I agree with most of what is otherwise quoted there, but I put in bold the statements are the problem. Out of phase IME has more to do with poor mic technique (especially when instruments are recorded in different environments); some boards allow you to switch phase on the mics so wiring error seems like a less likely cause. The solution to out-of-phase bass is a device that temporarily creates mono below a certain frequency and only for the few milliseconds that the out of phase issue exists. Usually such devices operate passively so they will have the least sonic effect otherwise. It is not a form of EQ.

Note that none of this has to do with saturation. Its more concerned with not knocking the stylus out of the groove during playback. We did a recording recently where it was obvious there was a ground loop, oscillation or badly microphonic tube in the record process; we could easily see the 15KHz signature under the microscope. In the end we left it alone as the cutter had no problem with it.

In addition, the techniques you mentioned above will, if anything, cause the LP be sound less dynamic, not more.
 
You haven't answered the question about what it would mean if all differences between the cable and another cable were 140dB down from peak level.

Do you think that measurement has any meaning? Please, let's see some dialog on this issue, instead of sniping back and forth.

What question are you referring to? If you want some dialog please answer the question in post 1847 (or please answer with a link to your answer, perhaps I missed it in this long thread).

The proper measurements will surely be meaningful - unhappily IMHO we still do not know what are the proper measurements in high-end audio.
 
Note that none of this has to do with saturation. Its more concerned with not knocking the stylus out of the groove during playback. We did a recording recently where it was obvious there was a ground loop, oscillation or badly microphonic tube in the record process; we could easily see the 15KHz signature under the microscope. In the end we left it alone as the cutter had no problem with it.

In addition, the techniques you mentioned above will, if anything, cause the LP be sound less dynamic, not more.
Sorry Atmasphere, I didn't mean to "ambush" you. It just occurred to me that what goes on in LP mastering is many orders of magnitude more significant than the effects of cables, yet people ignore it and can talk for pages and pages about what are minuscule effects - if they exist at all in any form that any human can sense.

I seem to be in some trouble whichever word I use ("saturation, "clipping", "overload"). In your example above I would say that the needle jumping out of the groove amounts to pretty hard clipping! If I was preparing my recording for vinyl, I might be tempted to self-administer some compression, so my recording would have a form of saturation anyway, so I don't think it's possible to say simply that vinyl does not suffer from saturation - it's more complex than that..?
 
I don't know, but they've evidently shared their experiences, and micro is aware of them, so these experiences must be recorded somewhere.

Tim

Surely. But because of specific laws of data protection we will not be able to access them before 2050. ;)

My apologies to everyone for the reference of thousands as a generic large number - I forgot that the sense of humor of some people in WBF has been switched off long ago.
 
Surely. But because of specific laws of data protection we will not be able to access them before 2050. ;)

My apologies to everyone for the reference of thousands as a generic large number - I forgot that the sense of humor of some people in WBF has been switched off long ago.

My sense of humor is intact, micro. I had a good laugh over this one.

Tim
 
What question are you referring to? If you want some dialog please answer the question in post 1847 (or please answer with a link to your answer, perhaps I missed it in this long thread).

The proper measurements will surely be meaningful - unhappily IMHO we still do not know what are the proper measurements in high-end audio.

You quoted my question, and you still aren't going to answer it? The question was fully in sight when you said "what question".
 
The proper measurements will surely be meaningful - unhappily IMHO we still do not know what are the proper measurements in high-end audio.

Hello Micro

How do you think we got here?? How do you think the systems we all take for granted everyday were designed and tested??

I guess I will have to be happy with entry level and mid-fi. They seem to know what they are doing and actually seem to get measurements. You guys in the High-end can continue to stumble blind wondering how it all happened and how we got here.

Magic beans?

Rob:)
 
Hello Micro

How do you think we got here?? How do you think the systems we all take for granted everyday were designed and tested??

I guess I will have to be happy with entry level and mid-fi. They seem to know what they are doing and actually seem to get measurements. You guys in the High-end can continue to stumble blind wondering how it all happened and how we got here.

Magic beans?

Rob:)

Magic beans, magic gas.

Tim
 
Hello Micro

How do you think we got here?? How do you think the systems we all take for granted everyday were designed and tested??

I guess I will have to be happy with entry level and mid-fi. They seem to know what they are doing and actually seem to get measurements. You guys in the High-end can continue to stumble blind wondering how it all happened and how we got here.

Magic beans?

Rob:)

Micro's position is a fairly nuanced, First-World-Problem one that doesn't quite hold water under close scrutiny.

Although there are some high-end products that seem to have been thrown together with no regard for the objective performance, they are - relatively speaking - rare (interestingly, there's some fairly strong correlation between ears and meters on these products, in that they are usually the ones the 'ears-first' people tend to reject as sounding 'no good', and the 'needles-first' people can point out why. There are also products that are routinely liked by some, despite not performing well on the bench, and these are usually for reasonably predictable reasons). This gives rise to what I think of as the 'audiophile white smoke' effect; because the objective boxes are already ticked in advance, the audiophile can sit around and muse on the nature of sound like some Romantic era poet, wafting around in a haze of opium smoke.

However, the alternate and just as polarised viewpoint is the objective ivory tower of thinking measurement alone fully defines the nature of a product is as flawed in thinking. While it is possible to cite well-engineered products that were designed with minimal listener involvement, a more reliable method of product design involves a great deal of measurement and a great deal of listening along the way. In fairness, thanks in part to extremely sophisticated EE design and modelling programs making electronic circuit design extremely predictable before it even gets to physical prototype form, the closer you get to the transducers, the thermionics and the mechanical engineering aspects of a system, the more important those listening tests become.

An analogy I've seen several times recently is that of the SONAR operator. SONAR calls upon some very well tried and tested technology, with detection algorithms that are capable of seemingly impossible levels of discrimination. And yet, above all that sits an operator, listening for things that should be demonstrably and scientifically impossible to detect according to any current psychoacoustic model. It's not a perfect mechanism, as it ultimately calls upon an inherently fallible mechanism (man); but that fallible human hearing mechanism still proves to be more discriminating than the current limits of technology.

So ultimately, it's not that high-end audio - or audio in general - rejects the objective systems in place in audio. In most cases, far from it. However, there's a realisation that - as Floyd-Toole put it - it's 'science in the service of art' and that even after you have measured absolutely everything, listening (to a thing that is designed to be listened to) can provide its own data points.
 
Alan,
I think one aspect that compounds these discussions though is that some measurements may not correlate to what some objectivists (this is about a specific context and not objectivits-measurements in general) on forums argue as being audible or how they affect sound.
Look how contentious jitter is and then reading most forum discussions it is oversimplified with the debate more around noise rather than correlated, and then not discussing the pattern-traits of said correlated jitter and other aspects such as noise from a products mains that is seen for some gear in jitter,etc.

Regarding cables, I could point to digital cables and eye patterns, but many forum objectivitists will argue there is no correlation between average measurements compared to superb ones being audibly different, or how they affect sound.
A point I raised earlier was about energy decay/delay-latency; can any objectivist on here answer the sound difference a listener hears for a speaker driver that has a 2ms quicker decay at say 1khz on a complex musical note?

The behaviour of cognitive perception on this and some other related factors (say +1db difference between left/right speaker drivers, suckout with a narrow frequency range,etc) needs further work; case in point is headphones where you read often that they are much more accurate than speakers and yet the difference between left/right can be 4-5db, response is far from smooth, and critically measurements change substantially for certain frequency ranges (both bass and highs) with the smallest of position changes to the pinna but this is not picked up it seems in listening tests perception of sound quality; see recent test results from Sean Olive where anomalies of such variables can be seen and what Keith Howard has to say also on this subject.

TBH I am not coming out for/against any one position on here as there are valid points all round, but I do feel this is not going to resolve anytime soon.
Cheers
Orb
 
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