Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[rbbert]

...All I'm suggesting is that the believers close their eyes and see how much of that difference they can actually hear. Two guys and two IC cables could pull this off in a fraction of the time we've spent talking about it on the internet. It wouldn't prove anything to anyone but themselves. But that standard has been good enough for spending the money. It might suffice for saving it as well...

Tim

I'm in agreement with you here. Differences are small compared to anything else in the chain, and pale compared to speakers or mastering of recordings. I'm pretty sure I posted that here previously, or maybe in the Peter Principle Cable topic.

 

[microstrip]

A control? Yes, that would be helpful, though for something this simple, screening participants for good hearing would probably be fine. But I'm not talking about formal testing; you're right that there's no interest, certainly not in the scientific community. I was talking about simple self-testing. You didn't require well-designed, well-conducted sighted listening tests to conclude that wire makes a difference worth hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars. All I'm suggesting is that the believers close their eyes and see how much of that difference they can actually hear. Two guys and two IC cables could pull this off in a fraction of the time we've spent talking about it on the internet. It wouldn't prove anything to anyone but themselves. But that standard has been good enough for spending the money. It might suffice for saving it as well.

But there doesn't seem to be any interest in that either.

Tim

Two (or one and many, as was the case) guys and two IC cables could just prove that under these specific conditions (non scientific or certified by any means) they could separate the cables. I have carried this experiment using a top Transparent Audio RCA IC and the cheaper Monster cable IC and most people correctly identified the IC as the Transparent Audio was more full bodied. But as it was a private experiment and I was the guy carrying the experiment the public value is null. But for me and a few skeptics in the audience it was enough.

 

[microstrip]

I'm in agreement with you here. Differences are small compared to anything else in the chain, and pale compared to speakers or mastering of recordings. I'm pretty sure I posted that here previously, or maybe in the Peter Principle Cable topic.

The differences are small, but in a fine tuned high-end system for critical listeners they can make be the difference between an average system and being rewarded with an enjoyable experience most of the time.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello rbbert

Surely Rob you don't design and build your speakers by measurement alone? I feel fairly certain you do some listening

I have not turned on the set-up to measure speakers in over 2 years now. Nothing in the works although that will change shortly once I get my new compression drivers. Then it will start again concept, cabinets, measurements, crossover, design validation and then listening tests.



Hello tomelex

Back to measurements for a minute. The input and output impedances for my CLIO rig are 64K and 150 ohms. Are not typical preamp inputs/outputs similar except possible the output? Even if they are 10K at the inputs there is no current and typically just a couple of volts, say 1.5-2 volts on the output at best looking at typical amp requirements for 0Db drive.

Why would you expect to see significant changes in cable performance based on load from set-up to set-up?? I know there is no standardization like in the RF world with say 50 ohm loads. We characterize cables in test set-ups all the time I have a hard time believing that this could not be done for a simple audio interconnect.

Rob

 

[Atmasphere]

The earlier discussion pointed out that all distortion is inharmonic when there is more than one note playing in the music.

But if feedback is a problem, I presume you can measure it or simulate it..? And draw a conclusion in listening tests as to how audible/objectionable it is..?

There's an audio designer called Bruno Putzeys who seems quite highly regarded in audio circles. He has a quite interesting presentation online. One page stood out for me:

http://www.hypex.nl/component/weblinks/?task=weblink.go&id=62

As tomelex pointed out, by the time you have enough gain to really add the huge amounts of feedback needed, you start to have an issue much like a carrot in front of a donkey. Nelson Pass comments on this in his article on distortion:

https://passlabs.com/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback

IMO/IME the faster your circuit (risetime) the more you can get away with feedback. There are fairly simple tests that show how objectionable it can be. However someone were to argue that I am conflating an increase in odd ordered harmonic distortion with adding feedback, they would be correct.

OK, I withdraw my slightly tongue-in-cheek generalisation. It was loosely based on my experience at audio shows.

Ah. Humor. I gotta say, there is far too much light jazz with female vocals at shows. I prefer to play King Crimson, Massive Attack, stuff with more bounce. Its 'better'

 

[Robh3606]

I prefer to play King Crimson, Massive Attack, stuff with more bounce. Its 'better'

LOL I bet a good dose of Red or Larks Tongue would shock many there for hearing it played at a show

Rob

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Two (or one and many, as was the case) guys and two IC cables could just prove that under these specific conditions (non scientific or certified by any means) they could separate the cables. I have carried this experiment using a top Transparent Audio RCA IC and the cheaper Monster cable IC and most people correctly identified the IC as the Transparent Audio was more full bodied. But as it was a private experiment and I was the guy carrying the experiment the public value is null. But for me and a few skeptics in the audience it was enough.

Whiich is, of course, why I said it wouldn't prove anything. Did you find it valuable personally?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

As tomelex pointed out, by the time you have enough gain to really add the huge amounts of feedback needed, you start to have an issue much like a carrot in front of a donkey. Nelson Pass comments on this in his article on distortion:

https://passlabs.com/articles/audio-distortion-and-feedback

IMO/IME the faster your circuit (risetime) the more you can get away with feedback. There are fairly simple tests that show how objectionable it can be. However someone were to argue that I am conflating an increase in odd ordered harmonic distortion with adding feedback, they would be correct.


Ah. Humor. I gotta say, there is far too much light jazz with female vocals at shows. I prefer to play King Crimson, Massive Attack, stuff with more bounce. Its 'better'

Ahh...now there's something we can definitely agree on. I'm particularly fond of the Frip/Wetton/Bruford/Cross era Crimson. So much so that in spite of owning all the studio albums from that period plus USA and The Great Deceivier, I'll probably have to have The Road To Red when it is released.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Whiich is, of course, why I said it wouldn't prove anything. Did you find it valuable personally?

Tim

Yes. Me and as far as I see, thousands who shared similar opinions in similar conditions all over the world - yes, the world of audio exists beyond WBF.

 

[rbbert]

... I'll probably have to have The Road To Red when it is released.

Tim

Just in case you didn't know already, the cheapest price by far (at this time) is from amazon.co.uk, about $160 delivered to the USA.

Just as a side note, it's hard for me to understand how you would want to buy this and yet not be a huge fan of the '72 - '74 Grateful Dead.

 

[j_j]

I didn't realise that asking a question, then in the absence of an answer, attempting to develop a working hypothesis was personalising the issue! I'm just interested in what you think is a good thing, or a bad thing, or a useful thing.

Why would you ask that?

It's a question of preference. Why does my preference mean anything? Hint: It shouldn't.

OK, let's call it 'soft clipping', or 'saturation' or 'approaching overload'. I think you know what I mean!

Actually, calling slowly growing distortions one step at a time is certainly not soft clipping, it's kind of like tape saturation but without the misbehavior at higher frequencies, and it's a case where "overload" is not a well-defined idea. At what point do you decide you're overloading? Usually you can ALSO find a clipping point above the point where "useful" (to those who like it) levels of distortion happen.

We may be getting there one step at a time. If it's not too personal could I ask these questions:

Some systems saturate/overload/soft clip (could be tape, vinyl, amplifiers) causing added distortion.
(a) Do you think that this effect can be a useful substitute for extra dynamic range?

Some people like the effect. So, yes, for those people, it is useful.

(b) Do you think that these systems may have been designed, or may have evolved, in the way they have, because of this characteristic?

There was no deliberate design I know of, but there are examples of recordings that do appear to use this kind of thing, at low levels, in what seems to be a generally accepted fashion. My suspicion, and that is all I have to offer, is that people listened and decided at what level the music sounded best, and cut it at that level. That subsumes a lot more than just high-level performance.

(c) Could you envisage advocating, and designing, a system where this effect was deliberately induced as a way of expanding the apparent dynamic range of a compressed recording?

It's not very hard to do so.

(d) Is the 'saturation' inherent in some recording systems like vinyl, in fact, a good thing under some circumstances, if not all?

Don't think the word "saturation" is appropriate. If you like it, it's a good thing. If you don't, it's not. Don't confuse preference with anything else.

(e) Would you rather have a system that was 'saturation'-free up to any volume you wanted, or one that had the characteristics of existing vinyl/tube equipment?

Why would my preference matter? My preference for a system would be so far off a two-channel system of any sort that comparisons are not even appropriate.

(f) In the ideal world, would you like the option of the 'saturation'-free system, plus the ability to add dynamic range expansion using DSP?

I'm sure some people might.

(g) In (f) would you prefer to do the dynamic range expansion with added distortion (simulated 'saturation') or 'straight' dynamic range expansion?

I am genuinely interested, because I don't just want to make observations. Thanks!

Again, what I would prefer is outside of this discussion. Bear in mind that I've done a fair amount of work on things like direct/diffuse radiation, multichannel audio, and the like, as well as a bunch of research into spatial sensation, etc.

 

[j_j]

A control? Yes, that would be helpful, though for something this simple, screening participants for good hearing would probably be fine.

Better you add in positive controls and see how your subjects respond to them. "Good hearing" is at least somewhat necessary, but there is also an issue of training and learning that you can't measure with audiometry.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes. Me and as far as I see, thousands who shared similar opinions in similar conditions all over the world - yes, the world of audio exists beyond WBF.

I'm confused. Are you saying that thousands, all over the world have conducted this test, or that it was a carefully designed, executed and analyzed, scientifically valid study that has meaning to thousands, all over the world, who did not experience the listening themselves?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Just in case you didn't know already, the cheapest price by far (at this time) is from amazon.co.uk, about $160 delivered to the USA.

Just as a side note, it's hard for me to understand how you would want to buy this and yet not be a huge fan of the '72 - '74 Grateful Dead.

You hear a lot of similarities between early 70s King Crimson and The Dead? Maybe I'm missing something, but they are both non-jazz bands that did extensive improvisational jams. I don't see any similarities beyond that.

To be honest, I have owned copies of Working Man's Dead, Blues for Allah, and there was another, classic, name currently escapes me...rose on the cover? I enjoyed them all. But there is only so much time to get into so much music, and I've spent huge periods of my life listening almost exclusively to music for instructive purposes (or for band material). The fact that I've never been a huge Deadhead doesn't mean I don't like them or wouldn't really appreciate that period if I found time to dig in. I just haven't found that time.

Tim

 

[Ethan Winer]

I don't think measurements, any kind of measurements, are going to convince the folks who believe in high-end wire. I suspect that even if you conducted blind listening on them personally, and they failed to consistently ID their favorite high-end cable vs. Radio Shack wire, they'd believe that something in the blind listening was wrong and that their sighted conclusions are still right. That is the way it has always been. Nothing has changed. The subject has just come around again.

Amen!

 

[microstrip]

I'm confused. Are you saying that thousands, all over the world have conducted this test, or that it was a carefully designed, executed and analyzed, scientifically valid study that has meaning to thousands, all over the world, who did not experience the listening themselves?

Tim

I love your confusions ... I am stating that thousands have experienced similar positive results in casual blind tests. OK, next you are going to ask me if I have any scientific proof that they are thousands, not hundreds ...

 

[j_j]

I love your confusions ... I am stating that thousands have experienced similar positive results in casual blind tests. OK, next you are going to ask me if I have any scientific proof that they are thousands, not hundreds ...

You haven't answered the question about what it would mean if all differences between the cable and another cable were 140dB down from peak level.

Do you think that measurement has any meaning? Please, let's see some dialog on this issue, instead of sniping back and forth.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I love your confusions ... I am stating that thousands have experienced similar positive results in casual blind tests. OK, next you are going to ask me if I have any scientific proof that they are thousands, not hundreds ...

Yeah, I really wasn't confused, I just wanted confirmation that you were actually saying that thousands of people have blind-tested cable and reported positive results.

Tim

 

[j_j]

Yeah, I really wasn't confused, I just wanted confirmation that you were actually saying that thousands of people have blind-tested cable and reported positive results.

Tim

Wow. Thousands. I wonder where they are!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Wow. Thousands. I wonder where they are!

I don't know, but they've evidently shared their experiences, and micro is aware of them, so these experiences must be recorded somewhere.

Tim