Objectivist or Subjectivist? Give Me a Break

[microstrip]

Agreed. I would also add we know more about the way our rooms interact with our systems and the way to deal with that. We are far from just dropping speakers in any room and expect it to work its best. (...)

Frantz,

Agreed about the better knowledge of the interaction process. But the application of this knowledge is not converging - if you look at the different practices of professionals who design and implement acoustic treatments you will find almost opposite findings. I was making some search recently and found that the "wars" between the acoustic room treatments clans is greater than the "wars" between high-end manufacturers.

Simply looking at the pictures of professionally treated rooms in the net will drive you crazy. Consider just the front wall - some professionals use absorbers in the center and lateral diffusers, others diffusers in the center and lateral absorbers, for speakers having similar radiation patterns. How can both be correct?

 

[FrantzM]

Different paths to the same goal in my opinion. Same as different speakers or electronics IMO.. If one can reduce the 20 dB and up change in response brought by so many rooms, it can only improve the reproduction.The consensus is that the room affect the sound in a very strong fashion and limiting its impacts on the final reproduction is the goal.. from there different philosophies/path/mehtods on how to achieve this... Care to share your finding with us?

 

[Gregadd]

Frantz,

Agreed about the better knowledge of the interaction process. But the application of this knowledge is not converging - if you look at the different practices of professionals who design and implement acoustic treatments you will find almost opposite findings. I was making some search recently and found that the "wars" between the acoustic room treatments clans is greater than the "wars" between high-end manufacturers.

Simply looking at the pictures of professionally treated rooms in the net will drive you crazy. Consider just the front wall - some professionals use absorbers in the center and lateral diffusers, others diffusers in the center and lateral absorbers, for speakers having similar radiation patterns. How can both be correct?

I've said it before, "when man fixes a a problem he creates another one."

 

[microstrip]

Different paths to the same goal in my opinion. Same as different speakers or electronics IMO.. If one can reduce the 20 dB and up change in response brought by so many rooms, it can only improve the reproduction.The consensus is that the room affect the sound in a very strong fashion and limiting its impacts on the final reproduction is the goal.. from there different philosophies/path/mehtods on how to achieve this... Care to share your finding with us?

Frantz,

I will do it soon in a separate thread. I have almost finished re-arranging my room acoustics to fit the Aida's full range - the second tuned bass trap is just in position. I have found that the decays of the room affect the perceived sound much more than just the small FR variations caused by the absorbers. Also, when you treat the very low bass frequencies (around 30-40Hz) amplifier and electronics differences become easier to notice.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

I will do it soon in a separate thread. I have almost finished re-arranging my room acoustics to fit the Aida's full range - the second tuned bass trap is just in position. I have found that the decays of the room affect the perceived sound much more than just the small FR variations caused by the absorbers. Also, when you treat the very low bass frequencies (around 30-40Hz) amplifier and electronics differences become easier to notice.

Very good! Looking forward for this thread

 

[rbbert]

Frantz,

I will do it soon in a separate thread. I have almost finished re-arranging my room acoustics to fit the Aida's full range - the second tuned bass trap is just in position. I have found that the decays of the room affect the perceived sound much more than just the small FR variations caused by the absorbers. Also, when you treat the very low bass frequencies (around 30-40Hz) amplifier and electronics differences become easier to notice.

By what means are you treating these very low frequencies?

 

[Soundminded]

Objectivists have direction that takes them....nowhere close to where they want to go. Proof? They rely on measurements which don't correlate with what people hear and equipment that measures nearly the same sounds very different. Equipment that measures well doesn't sound like music when it's playing recordings. Clearly something is very wrong with the theories their measurements are based on.

Subjectivists by contrast stumble around in the dark going in every possible direction also geting nowhere. There are as many schools of subjectivism as there are inventive people with new silver bullets to lure them into relinquishing their money on the latest breakthrough. They never seem to tire of it though. If they are not convinced by the objectivist's theories, what they fail to realize is that they've invented plenty of their own.

So it comes down to a battle of flawed science against multiple religions. And then there's real music, you know, the nearly obsolete kind that comes from people who learn to play musical instruments. All of the audiophiles' problems would go away if they could just get rid of those damned musicians. You can see what a problem the Catholic Church had with Galileo. He was wrecking a good thing they had going for them. Lesson learned, never listen to live music and you'll be satisfied with your audio equipment. What you don't know won't bother you.

 

[JackD201]

Objectivists have direction that takes them....nowhere close to where they want to go. Proof? They rely on measurements which don't correlate with what people hear and equipment that measures nearly the same sounds very different. Equipment that measures well doesn't sound like music when it's playing recordings. Clearly something is very wrong with the theories their measurements are based on.

Subjectivists by contrast stumble around in the dark going in every possible direction also geting nowhere. There are as many schools of subjectivism as there are inventive people with new silver bullets to lure them into relinquishing their money on the latest breakthrough. They never seem to tire of it though. If they are not convinced by the objectivist's theories, what they fail to realize is that they've invented plenty of their own.

So it comes down to a battle of flawed science against multiple religions. And then there's real music, you know, the nearly obsolete kind that comes from people who learn to play musical instruments. All of the audiophiles' problems would go away if they could just get rid of those damned musicians. You can see what a problem the Catholic Church had with Galileo. He was wrecking a good thing they had going for them. Lesson learned, never listen to live music and you'll be satisfied with your audio equipment. What you don't know won't bother you.

So where are you in all of this?

 

[terryj]

Objectivists have direction that takes them....nowhere close to where they want to go.

Really? Let's forget your blanket statement and just concentrate on one, show us your mettle.

Tell, where do I want to go? If you can't get the singular right, we can forget your attempts at the entire group.

Next, tell me how you evaluated that I am not where I want to be.

That's for starters.

Proof? They rely on measurements which don't correlate with what people hear and equipment that measures nearly the same sounds very different.

Oh, that danged dac chip from the same batch again. Very different? Like a ham sandwich and a banana? that sort of different? Or like a banana smoothie and a banana, maybe that sort.

Equipment that measures well doesn't sound like music when it's playing recordings.

Does that imply equipment that measures badly does? Kinda at odds with your stance.

Subjectivists by contrast stumble around in the dark going in every possible direction also geting nowhere.

I am sure there a tons of subjectivist systems that would please tons of people, moi included.

I accept that no system would ever please you tho.

So it comes down to a battle of flawed science against multiple religions. And then there's real music, you know, the nearly obsolete kind that comes from people who learn to play musical instruments. All of the audiophiles' problems would go away if they could just get rid of those damned musicians. You can see what a problem the Catholic Church had with Galileo. He was wrecking a good thing they had going for them. Lesson learned, never listen to live music and you'll be satisfied with your audio equipment. What you don't know won't bother you.

You mean musicians like NIN as one example from a billion? But how could that possibly be, no doubt they use amps, drivers and associated gear just as we do, they create what we cannot create, oh dear what a logical corner we have painted ourself into.

Oh, I remember now, classical music only right?

Now, about these breakthroughs you have been trumpeting, will they be at RMAF this year? What is about these breakthroughs that appeal to you after having heard them, we're still waiting for those insights.

 

[JackD201]

I like Nine Inch Nails!

 

[Soundminded]

Really? Let's forget your blanket statement and just concentrate on one, show us your mettle.

Tell, where do I want to go? If you can't get the singular right, we can forget your attempts at the entire group.

Next, tell me how you evaluated that I am not where I want to be.

That's for starters.



Oh, that danged dac chip from the same batch again. Very different? Like a ham sandwich and a banana? that sort of different? Or like a banana smoothie and a banana, maybe that sort.



Does that imply equipment that measures badly does? Kinda at odds with your stance.





I am sure there a tons of subjectivist systems that would please tons of people, moi included.

I accept that no system would ever please you tho.



You mean musicians like NIN as one example from a billion? But how could that possibly be, no doubt they use amps, drivers and associated gear just as we do, they create what we cannot create, oh dear what a logical corner we have painted ourself into.

Oh, I remember now, classical music only right?

Now, about these breakthroughs you have been trumpeting, will they be at RMAF this year? What is about these breakthroughs that appeal to you after having heard them, we're still waiting for those insights.

In your world, do you put heretics on the rack or do you just burn them at the stake to get it over with?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Really? Let's forget your blanket statement and just concentrate on one, show us your mettle.

Tell, where do I want to go? If you can't get the singular right, we can forget your attempts at the entire group.

Next, tell me how you evaluated that I am not where I want to be.

That's for starters.



Oh, that danged dac chip from the same batch again. Very different? Like a ham sandwich and a banana? that sort of different? Or like a banana smoothie and a banana, maybe that sort.



Does that imply equipment that measures badly does? Kinda at odds with your stance.





I am sure there a tons of subjectivist systems that would please tons of people, moi included.

I accept that no system would ever please you tho.



You mean musicians like NIN as one example from a billion? But how could that possibly be, no doubt they use amps, drivers and associated gear just as we do, they create what we cannot create, oh dear what a logical corner we have painted ourself into.

Oh, I remember now, classical music only right?

Now, about these breakthroughs you have been trumpeting, will they be at RMAF this year? What is about these breakthroughs that appeal to you after having heard them, we're still waiting for those insights.

I'll be interested in this response, myself. Normally, I just wouldn't have time for such things, but I've finished listening to the latest frequency response chart sent by The Objectivist Music Club and have some time on my hands.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

I just want to know if he's gotten anywhere others haven't.

 

[NorthStar]

I like Nine Inch Nails!

-----I luvvvv NIN! ...One of my favorite Rock bands.

 

[terryj]

In your world, do you put heretics on the rack or do you just burn them at the stake to get it over with?

Nah, that's so old hat.

See, in my world that would be an admission (resorting to violence) that your stance cannot be substantiated by argument, logic or example, pretty downtone response.

Far better to simply see if the other side can substantiate their stance. Forget taking up any points of evidence in this example (like 'how was it determined that things that measure the same sound completely different') but see if the points of logic can be addressed. Like 'how exactly does he know what person X, for whom he is speaking, wants from his system and how he knows person X has not got it'.

You know, the real kindergarten stuff.

So what need of stakes in today's age eh? The bright light of inspection does wonders.

NIN just popped into my head as I typed, but really now that I think about it they are a wonderful example. For my money, they'll do to illustrate a time when the experience at home is better than the real. (forget any snobby 'but it aint classical' crap for now m'k? I hope you'd be decent enough to not foister your personal music tastes on us as well...NOT that their is anything wrong with classical mind, love it, prob on balance makes up the majority of what I listen to).

For starters, they were too loud, insanely loud. That and that all you could hear was bass was part of the reason I ended up outside and listened from there. Able to hear any of the production qualities at the gig? Forget it. (love them or hate them, some of the production and effects are mind blowing). Any of the phase tricks (like bass that walks around the room)? Forget it.

A serendipitous perfect example that disproves your basic premise. That I also don't have zonked out kiddies with their stupid mobile phones in my face is just an added bonus.

You know what really intrigues me about you tho? For all your haughty righteousness and disdain for 'audiophiles' (now used in it's purest and broadest sense hence for example includes myself) is that it turns out YOU are the stereotypical audiophile.

What about them apples eh.

It seems that it is YOU that is soooo wrapped up in how the reproduction sounds that you don't and cannot actually listen to the music, instead you are totally and completely focused on how it sounds.

Possibly to avoid the nasty realisations that often come with hypocrisy it gets cloaked in a mantle of superiority..superiority of taste, superiority of listening acuity, superiority of knowledge all topped off with the (shallow) veneer of 'objectivity', ie "I am so above this and objective that I view the scene with equanimity and hence I, and I alone, can comprehend that idiocies of both sides and their vain attempts to enjoy stereo".

Well, it is easy to see thru such window dressing as that.

You it turns out are the biggest audiophile of us all. The caricature outsiders point their finger at.

 

[Groucho]

Listened to my system last night, and it sounded most excellent, and I enjoyed playing it loud, hearing every detail in the music, but I was tired and fell asleep. Came in tonight after quite a relentless day at work but not particularly tired, and turned on the self-same system in the self-same room. Just not the same. Sounding lifeless and not 'shimmering'. Hearing every defect in the recording. Drank a beer while listening. No difference, not enjoying it at all. Paused it and went away for a coffee. Came back and started it up again. Ah, much better! On song again. Whether that's because I wanted it to be, or the caffeine kicked in, or I finally wound down after work, or a bit of wax in my ear got dislodged, I don't know.

It occurs to me that were I some sort of hi fi reviewer, my opinion of the sound would be quite worthless. Were I some sort of audiophile I would be feverishly propping my cables up on ceramic supports and stacking CDs ready for the freezer. But as a would-be objectivist I'm fairly calm about it, and know that I really can't trust my ears at any particular instant, except for the really obvious stuff. Beyond that, I'll choose the equipment with the best measurements (solid state amp with adequate construction and sensible design, active speakers etc.) but be open to plausible suggestions that it can be improved upon, keep an eye on new ideas for measurements, room correction and so on.

My question for the subjectivists is: do you ever find that your system sounds radically different from day to day even though you haven't changed anything about it? If the answer is no, then I'll just have to accept that I am bumbingly inadequate as an audiophile. But if yes, you must surely wonder whether you have ever actually discerned anything real regarding 'presence', 'soundstage', 'focus' etc.

 

[rbbert]

And just when some of thought this thread might die a natural death...

 

[JackD201]

Listened to my system last night, and it sounded most excellent, and I enjoyed playing it loud, hearing every detail in the music, but I was tired and fell asleep. Came in tonight after quite a relentless day at work but not particularly tired, and turned on the self-same system in the self-same room. Just not the same. Sounding lifeless and not 'shimmering'. Hearing every defect in the recording. Drank a beer while listening. No difference, not enjoying it at all. Paused it and went away for a coffee. Came back and started it up again. Ah, much better! On song again. Whether that's because I wanted it to be, or the caffeine kicked in, or I finally wound down after work, or a bit of wax in my ear got dislodged, I don't know.

It occurs to me that were I some sort of hi fi reviewer, my opinion of the sound would be quite worthless. Were I some sort of audiophile I would be feverishly propping my cables up on ceramic supports and stacking CDs ready for the freezer. But as a would-be objectivist I'm fairly calm about it, and know that I really can't trust my ears at any particular instant, except for the really obvious stuff. Beyond that, I'll choose the equipment with the best measurements (solid state amp with adequate construction and sensible design, active speakers etc.) but be open to plausible suggestions that it can be improved upon, keep an eye on new ideas for measurements, room correction and so on.

My question for the subjectivists is: do you ever find that your system sounds radically different from day to day even though you haven't changed anything about it? If the answer is no, then I'll just have to accept that I am bumbingly inadequate as an audiophile. But if yes, you must surely wonder whether you have ever actually discerned anything real regarding 'presence', 'soundstage', 'focus' etc.

Mood matters definitely but I think there is a difference between thinking something sometimes sounds sub par and thinking something always sounds sub par. You don't have to be a subjectivist or an objectivist to determine that. It doesn't matter what mood you're in either.

 

[NorthStar]

-I believe music is an evolution, for each person, and it varies with each individual's intensity level.
Emotions are a big part of the picture, and so people's life own personal experience.
...Path of life; right from the beginning when we were born, and right to the end when we die.

 

[microstrip]

(...) My question for the subjectivists is: do you ever find that your system sounds radically different from day to day even though you haven't changed anything about it? If the answer is no, then I'll just have to accept that I am bumbingly inadequate as an audiophile. But if yes, you must surely wonder whether you have ever actually discerned anything real regarding 'presence', 'soundstage', 'focus' etc.

My system does not sound radically different from day to day, unless I make radical changes! I also accept that some days I am not prepared or wanting to listen to music.
It is why you must have a systematic approach to system evaluation, and forget the immediate wow effect due just to changes. IMHO, statistics is a keyword in subjective evaluation - very short listening tests are inappropriate. Long term auditions are needed. It is why I am keeping a Dartzeel NHB108 and an ARC REF150 in my system for about six weeks.