The Problem of reproducing large scale Orchestral music

[tima]

Reproducing the full scale, impact and envelopment of a full symphony orchestra in any domestic environment with any combination of hifi gear regardless of cost is out of reach. And it's going to stay that way.

Okay, sure. I know no one for whom this is a goal or an expectation -- at least on this forum. Reproduction is not reality.

But the real thing is in a hall with ~100 +/- musicians playing what you want to hear.

There we go. That's a reference for me. I'm happy if my stereo evokes that listening experience in a natural way. The music does the rest.

 

[morricab]

Okay, sure. I know no one for whom this is a goal or an expectation -- at least on this forum. Reproduction is not reality.



There we go. That's a reference for me. I'm happy if my stereo evokes that listening experience in a natural way. The music does the rest.

I think the point is that optimization of a system based on large scale classical recordings might not be the optimal reference. Never mind the compression needed to fit them on a recording medium, the limitations of all systems also limits tge usefulness of telling much about a system is there as well.

 

[R Johnson]

Reproducing the full scale, impact and envelopment of a full symphony orchestra in any domestic environment with any combination of hifi gear regardless of cost is out of reach. And it's going to stay that way.

I agree with your observations, Phil.
I attend Chicago Symphony concerts weekly, plus more.
Some years ago I sold my Quad ESL 57s to friend so that he could have two pairs.
I turned in my Audiophile card and am content with decent PSB bookshelf speakers.

 

[PeterA]

Okay, sure. I know no one for whom this is a goal or an expectation -- at least on this forum. Reproduction is not reality.



There we go. That's a reference for me. I'm happy if my stereo evokes that listening experience in a natural way. The music does the rest.

I agree with this. Reproduction is not reality. In Ron‘s system thread there is a recent response to the comment that music is not a sign wave. The response was that music is represented by a series of sine waves. I wonder if those sign waves resemble more a masterpiece by Jackson Pollock or a complex mathematical formula generated by a super computer.

Music heard live is the reality. The best we can hope is for our systems to evoke a listening experience in our homes that reminds us of our experience with live music, or one that simply allows us to fully enjoy our music.

 

[tima]

I think the point is that optimization of a system based on large scale classical recordings might not be the optimal reference. Never mind the compression needed to fit them on a recording medium, the limitations of all systems also limits tge usefulness of telling much about a system is there as well.

I understand your view on this from msg. 49.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

The last time I heard a string section in concert was in the Paris "Maison de la Radio". The picture below is of a string quartet - I heard a symphonic orchestra.

View attachment 148132

No issues with the sound. The violins sounded very good. No system I have heard can reproduce the "finesse" of live sound.

Yesterday my brother and I listened to Beethoven and Schumann in this hall, which is world famous for its acoustics:




Later that day we listened to this recording and concluded that you managed to capture the dynamics and timbre, considering RV 578 requires a small(er) orchestra:

 

[hopkins]

Yesterday my brother and I listened to Beethoven and Schumann in this hall, which is world famous for its acoustics:

View attachment 161802


Later that day we listened to this recording and concluded that you managed to capture the dynamics and timbre, considering RV 578 requires a small(er) orchestra:

The SX directly driving speakers with no or minimum crossover gives really interesting results IMO (in that spirit, listening with headphones is also very nice) - imagine what one could achieve with better speakers (I am happy listening to these but sometimes wished for a little more finesse…) But which ones? It is so hard to find something cheap, small, with decent sensitivity (ideally > 92 or even 94db).

 

[D.Duttilleux]

In light of this thread one may wonder/consider what it takes to 'reproduce a large-scale orchestra in a(n average) listening room', not only in terms of technology, but especially regarding the space to handle the dynamics and output levels—a symphony orchestra operates at around 110 dB.


The ECD SX is the only audio source component that, to my knowledge, approaches the universal concept of 'the path of least resistance', which requires atypical/unusual considerations upstream.
It took several months of reading and studying to better understand the (design) philosophy of the Brown brothers.

There's quite a bit of trash, trolling, and ego-driven bickering in the TDA1541 thread on diyaudio, but discerning readers will appreciate the value of John's contributions. He knew his objectives and was aware of the limitations (inherent to technology) before he and his brother embarked on a path that ultimately led to the SX.

The modified Teufels are pretty good considering their low price, but inherently limited.
The SX is most efficient when paired with speakers rated between 2 and 4 ohms, but higher values should be fine as long as the sensitivity is > 90 dB.

John is, of course, right in his preference for simple first-order crossover topologies, which require decent quality, broadband drivers that are usually (but not necessarily) more expensive.

While studying the SX, several concepts came to mind, including an Audio Note/Devore/Snell-inspired 2-way.




Sensitivity: 92-93 dB

Impedance (based on DC resistance): 6.0 Ω

Crossover frequency (6dB/octave): 2000–2500 Hz

Frequency response (depending on enclosure size and port tuning): 40/45–20,000 Hz.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

The easiest and cheapest solution to reproduce a symphony orchestra at appropriate levels is probably a large OB/IB 2-way system, like this:




You don't need top quality woofers, as long as the compression driver can be crossed low enough.
4 of these cheap 12" woofers should suffice.




Output at 8V/11.4 watts (4 woofers connected in series-parallel (x2)):

 

[DasguteOhr]

The easiest and cheapest solution to reproduce a symphony orchestra at appropriate levels is probably a large OB/IB 2-way system, like this:

View attachment 161892


You don't need top quality woofers, as long as the compression driver can be crossed low enough.
4 of these cheap 12" woofers should suffice.

View attachment 161893


Output at 8V/11.4 watts (4 woofers connected in series-parallel (x2)):

View attachment 161894

Yes like Vrel electroacoustic does, no xover 101db /1watt 11 ohms impedance

https://www.vrel.eu/electroacoustic/

 

[D.Duttilleux]

After gathering some information about the VREL dipole speakers, it must be concluded that these speakers have serious shortcomings,
notwithstanding the significant R&D efforts.
One major flaw is the (mechanical) crossover point at 3 kHz, which is (far) too high for 15" woofers, despite the light cone.
It's therefore not surprising that many of these systems are offered for sale on the second-hand market.

 

[matthias]

The ECD SX is the only audio source component that, to my knowledge, approaches the universal concept of 'the path of least resistance', which requires atypical/unusual considerations upstream.
It took several months of reading and studying to better understand the (design) philosophy of the Brown brothers.

Yes, the Brown brothers mentioned on diyaudio:

"One -could- view it as an ultra high speed stepped attenuator connected to a power supply where the speaker connects to the attenuator output. This way we can generate analogue signals without the need for analogue circuits like (pre) amps."

So the SQ is determined by both the quality of the power supply and the ultra high speed stepped attenuator.

 

[DasguteOhr]

After gathering some information about the VREL dipole speakers, it must be concluded that these speakers have serious shortcomings,
notwithstanding the significant R&D efforts.
One major flaw is the (mechanical) crossover point at 3 kHz, which is (far) too high for 15" woofers, despite the light cone.

Oh, I could really list ten 15" woofers that have a clean rolloff above 3kz. for me the better solution than to demand such low frequencies from horndriver.
There are drivers that enable under 1 kHz sufficient energy without high distortion. e.g. a Gauss HF 4000 can do this.

It's therefore not surprising that many of these systems are offered for sale on the second-hand market.

Only one i see today.

HiFi-Inserate | audio-markt.de - das Portal für Highend-Geräte, Lautsprecher, Verstärker...

www.audio-markt.de

A more sensible approach would be to combine 4 x 10" inexpensive 4 Ohm woofers with the Bliesma T-34S-4, crossed between 1500 and 2000 Hz.

Doesn't make a real bass, too little air displacement volume in the room. For open baffle you need at least 2x 15" woofers or more to move the air.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

To my

Yes, the Brown brothers mentioned on diyaudio:

"One -could- view it as an ultra high speed stepped attenuator connected to a power supply where the speaker connects to the attenuator output. This way we can generate analogue signals without the need for analogue circuits like (pre) amps."

So the SQ is determined by both the quality of the power supply and the ultra high speed stepped attenuator.

The SQ is primarily the determined by the optimized input section and the Fractal/Matrix technology + the absence of any amplification (no bias current, etc.). The power supply has been adapted accordingly.

Moreover:

"The Power supply could also be replaced by a 12V battery as there is no switching involved. It is just a DC power supply that can be set to the desired voltage (similar to a linear lab power supply) in order to change output POWER of the PowerDAC-SX."

 

[matthias]

"The Power supply could also be replaced by a 12V battery as there is no switching involved."

Yes, probably a perfect battery or a perfect unregulated power supply would be the best power source for the PowerDAC.

 

[D.Duttilleux]

Doesn't make a real bass, too little air displacement volume in the room. For open baffle you need at least 2x 15" woofers or more to move the air.

This mainly depends on the (size of the) room. You could also replace the upper + lower 10" with 12" woofers, or use 4 x 12".

10" woofers are quite common.


The 'clean rolloff above 3kHz' isn't the main issue, beaming/cancellation/lobing are.
Every decent sounding OB/Dipole system with 15" woofers I know features a low(er) LP for the woofers (<800 Hz).

 

[morricab]

Oh, I could really list ten 15" woofers that have a clean rolloff above 3kz. for me the better solution than to demand such low frequencies from horndriver.
There are drivers that enable under 1 kHz sufficient energy without high distortion. e.g. a Gauss HF 4000 can do this.View attachment 161953


Only one i see today.

HiFi-Inserate | audio-markt.de - das Portal für Highend-Geräte, Lautsprecher, Verstärker...

www.audio-markt.de

Doesn't make a real bass, too little air displacement volume in the room. For open baffle you need at least 2x 15" woofers or more to move the air.

There are quite a few compression drivers that will sound better above 800-1kHz than nearly any 15 inch woofer. Beaming also becomes a huge problem with such a big woofer. I have found that a good compression driver sounds better than even a very good 8 or 10 inch midbass driver, so even when designing with those I prefer to cross at 1kHz or below.
Interestingly, Acapella, which makes very good sounding speakers, does something similar with their La Campanella and Basso Nobile models. They cross the horn down at 700hz despite using 6.5 and 10 inch woofers, respectively. Granted they don’t use compression drivers but the domes they use don’t normally go that low. Clearly, they prefer the sound characteristics from the dome/horn over bringing the woofers up higher, which is also what I found out from my experiments.

 

[bonzo75]

Interestingly, Acapella, which makes very good sounding speakers, does something similar with their La Campanella and Basso Nobile models.

Acapella has good midrange/upper half, otherwise not a good speaker. Midbass below is poor, and requires a lot of power.

 

[matthias]

There are quite a few compression drivers that will sound better above 800-1kHz than nearly any 15 inch woofer. Beaming also becomes a huge problem with such a big woofer. I have found that a good compression driver sounds better than even a very good 8 or 10 inch midbass driver, so even when designing with those I prefer to cross at 1kHz or below.

Agree, in my speakers the 15 inch woofer cross at 1.2kHz to the CD, but it is a 1 inch (exit) one.
There aren't much 1 inch CDs which allow to cross below that if you like to play loud

 

[DasguteOhr]

There are quite a few compression drivers that will sound better above 800-1kHz than nearly any 15 inch woofer. Beaming also becomes a huge problem with such a big woofer. I have found that a good compression driver sounds better than even a very good 8 or 10 inch midbass driver, so even when designing with those I prefer to cross at 1kHz or below.
Interestingly, Acapella, which makes very good sounding speakers, does something similar with their La Campanella and Basso Nobile models. They cross the horn down at 700hz despite using 6.5 and 10 inch woofers, respectively. Granted they don’t use compression drivers but the domes they use don’t normally go that low. Clearly, they prefer the sound characteristics from the dome/horn over bringing the woofers up higher, which is also what I found out from my experiments.

Glad it works for you, not for me, I like high energetic sound from 12 and 15" drivers e.g tone tubbys, acoustic elagence..beyma.
Listen this that will change your opion 102db/1watt active ripol 18" below 70hz