Detailed Speaker Setup and Optimization

[Amir]

"Audiophiles agonize over equipment choices and ‘upgrades’, study magazines, read reviews in incredible detail and, in many cases get upset by them. Yet few if any audiophiles have ever experienced what their systems are actually capable of. I’ve worked on hundreds of systems, some of the most expensive systems there are, owned by some of the most serious and committed audiophiles out there. In every single case, I’ve been able to transform the performance of the system, the equipment that the client already owns. So much so that it bears no relation to the way it sounded before. They really had no idea what it was capable of. It’s safe to say that most people who own an expensive hi-fi system have never heard what it can or could do. I’m not being arrogant and I apologize if it sounds that way, but the facts speak for themselves. Not only am I still in business, but the vast majority of my clients – around 75 to 80% – are repeat customers! In one sense, that’s kind of inevitable. Once someone who has been chasing the audio rainbow, often for years, finally realizes that they were sitting on a pot of gold all that time but simply didn’t realise it, it completely rekindles their enthusiasm for audio and their passion for music. They start wondering just how much further this thing can go. They start shopping, moving the system towards that consistent ideal we’ve already talked about. But the one thing they’ve learnt is that, change anything in the system and you’d better be re-setting the speakers… As a result, a lot of my clients want me to visit at least a couple of times a year, either because they’re making a change, or simply to keep the system at the top of its game."

Stirling Trayle

 

[Elliot G.]

A very reasonable and sensible approach. However, it also applies particularly to Cage, but there the music is in the spaces between the noises ...

A practical question that only experience can answer - can we expect to have several such speaker positioning points in one listening room, or just one or two?

its a good question but I am not sure why this would matter. if you are constantly trying out new positions ( gross movements) you can't really do the fine movements that are required to truly dial something in. I am sure there are people that can do what I like to do faster than me. I have been doing it for a long time and of course on a limited basis compared to those who's business is doing it for a living. I do think however that although it is possible to have more than one place in a room that works there are parameters( and experience) that one can use to get IMO the best place and the easiest place to get the best result. I always want to work faster and smarter but heck that's me.

A point that I would like to mention..... Great systems set up properly will sound more alike than they sound different . There are of course differences but when I visit someone say Mike or Marty there systems aren't strange different they are able to let me listen to music. This result is not what I hear at most shows or showrooms , ( not all), it is this ability that is lacking in many places and sadly I believe by many people.
Stirling and Jim are two that have brought excellent results to a wider audience and I think that is great. Audio should be more about the result than just the boxes and price tags. Audio systems require work...period

 

[microstrip]

its a good question but I am not sure why this would matter. if you are constantly trying out new positions ( gross movements) you can't really do the fine movements that are required to truly dial something in. I am sure there are people that can do what I like to do faster than me. I have been doing it for a long time and of course on a limited basis compared to those who's business is doing it for a living. I do think however that although it is possible to have more than one place in a room that works there are parameters( and experience) that one can use to get IMO the best place and the easiest place to get the best result. I always want to work faster and smarter but heck that's me.

Thanks for your answer. IMO it matters a lot - as you say our time and resources to experiment is limited . There are several different methods and techniques of positioning that will result in different placement of speaker and listener - this prompts some of us to analyse this question.

A point that I would like to mention..... Great systems set up properly will sound more alike than they sound different . There are of course differences but when I visit someone say Mike or Marty there systems aren't strange different they are able to let me listen to music.

Although I feel tempted to agree with you I am not comfortable with such vague statement. "sound more alike than they sound different" - should we consider it as an endorsement of the theory that good set up is just reducing artifacts?

This result is not what I hear at most shows or showrooms , ( not all), it is this ability that is lacking in many places and sadly I believe by many people.

MO the fault is due to the teachers, not the pupils. Very knowledgeable people in the high-end industry and hobby usually are not interested in educating others on their methods, but love promoting themselves.

Stirling and Jim are two that have brought excellent results to a wider audience and I think that is great. Audio should be more about the result than just the boxes and price tags. Audio systems require work...period

Nice you refer to Jim Smith. IMO he is a real exception in this hobby - he loves to carry set up, but mostly loves to spread his deep knowledge. I must say that his book, DVDs and website are the basis on my current approach to system set up.

 

[Elliot G.]

Although I feel tempted to agree with you I am not comfortable with such vague statement. "sound more alike than they sound different" - should we consider it as an endorsement of the theory that good set up is just reducing artifacts

i am referring to the music. Does the system sound like music. The good ones do, they are engaging, the have a realistic quality, the y get ut of the way and let the music play. Ill give you an example. I have heard Wilson XLF to many times to mention. Shows, dealers, customers homes ( this is at least say ten years ago I am discussing) They always sounded very different from what I liked and owned and to be honest from each other. So much so that I did not like them at all. I always felt it could be the way they were set up but I had no access to prove my thoughts. I was invited to go to Transparent for some training, sailing and golf as Karen is a friend of mine and they have two custom rooms and they had XLF's there. Thos Xlf's sounded like music, there was not I had to adjust or think about it or try to force anything. You sat you listened you enjoyed. I think that I have discussed this with others in the Industry, that you would know their names but I won't speak for them and we all felt that this happens.
I have also heard good and not good with Rockport, Magico, and a few others. I know these are good products and have differences but when set up in a good room they display many of the same quality foundational traits as others. I hope that helps clarify. I was not try to blanket vaguely but this is an entirely different subject. After that the personal preferences/differences can be observed and evaluated as one sees fit.

 

[Elliot G.]

MO the fault is due to the teachers, not the pupils. Very knowledgeable people in the high-end industry and hobby usually are not interested in educating others on their methods, but love promoting themselves.

totally agree. Training is at best superficial if at all. I say this all the time the Industry cares more about the journey not the result. Move the box...NEXT

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks for your answer. IMO it matters a lot - as you say our time and resources to experiment is limited . There are several different methods and techniques of positioning that will result in different placement of speaker and listener - this prompts some of us to analyse this question.

I was taught and learned from many of the audio early pioneers. I do it the way I was shown and they all did it the same way BTW

 

[PeterA]

totally agree. Training is at best superficial if at all. I say this all the time the Industry cares more about the journey not the result. Move the box...NEXT

I found a good dealer who is nothing like what you describe. He guided me into learning, set up and importantly, turntable cartridge arm set up. He helps friends and customers.

 

[Elliot G.]

I found a good dealer who is nothing like what you describe. He guided me into learning, set up and importantly, turntable cartridge arm set up. He helps friends and customers.

That’s a wonderful thing but Peter all of your comments are only about you. You may have had good fortune however that is not typical . Just because your situation was good does not mean they all are.

 

[PeterA]

That’s a wonderful thing but Peter all of your comments are only about you. You may have had good fortune however that is not typical . Just because your situation was good does not mean they all are.

Yes, it is a wonderful thing. I’m not saying all situations are good, Elliot. And I’m not a dealer or a member of the industry. Of course, my comments are going to be only about me. I do know other people whom David has helped, but I’m here to share my own experience.

Clearly, David Karmeli is not typical. I find his advice to be much more comprehensive than Jim Smith’s was. It is a whole system approach. And the results were better in my particular case.

 

[Elliot G.]

I just managed to get my hands on this beauty . It was from the time I spent at Lyric with my friend , second father and mentor Mike Kay. This was a time when audio was seriously fun and truly the beginning of the crazy high end we live with now.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...and the Ultimate Sky's the Limit System in that article is $129,000.00 and another 5K for wiring in old money. So ~ $320K + wiring. That ain't sky's the limit today (not even for speakers), so something happened.

 

[Holmz]

...and the Ultimate Sky's the Limit System in that article is $129,000.00 and another 5K for wiring in old money. So ~ $320K + wiring. That ain't sky's the limit today (not even for speakers), so something happened.

Marketing.

 

[microstrip]

I found a good dealer who is nothing like what you describe. He guided me into learning, set up and importantly, turntable cartridge arm set up. He helps friends and customers.

Your good dealer guided you to be a prisoner locked with music made before 1980 and hard to get, maintain and service gear. Not my cup of tea, neither that of the majority of people. I respect his and your approach, but you are singularities in this hobby.

Clearly, David Karmeli is not typical. I find his advice to be much more comprehensive than Jim Smith’s was. It is a whole system approach. And the results were better in my particular case.

I can't understand what you mean by "comprehensive" in such context. Jim Smith is not essentially a dealer, although at some time he was, he is a set up man and an optimizer. But surely some people need more precise guidance.

 

[PeterA]

Your good dealer guided you to be a prisoner locked with music made before 1980 and hard to get, maintain and service gear. Not my cup of tea, neither that of the majority of people. I respect his and your approach, but you are singularities in this hobby.

You typically change the subject when you have nothing to contribute. “Not my cup of tea” is a silly comment which has poor meaning designed to save face. My post is not about majority of people. It is sharing a personal experience. We are talking about dealer value and quality.

I can't understand what you mean by "comprehensive" in such context. Jim Smith is not essentially a dealer, although at some time he was, he is a set up man and an optimizer. But surely some people need more precise guidance.

You have your opinions. I know you like Jim’s book. It is useful, but do you have any direct experience with Jim Smith and David Karmeli setting up your system? I do and I stand by my comments. Comprehensive means every aspect of system set up from electrical delivery to cartridge fine-tuning plus accessory evaluation.

 

[microstrip]

You typically change the subject when you have nothing to contribute. “Not my cup of tea” is a silly comment which has poor meaning designed to save face. My post is not about majority of people. It is sharing a personal experience. We are talking about dealer value and quality.

Well, thanks for your analysis, unsuccessfully trying to avoid the main subject - the limitations due to the field of expertise and guidance of your dealer. IMO it is a mandatory subject when we address dealer expertise in general Eliot and I were addressing it in general, in a broad sense. Nice to see you did not disagree with my facts.

You have your opinions. I know you like Jim’s book. It is useful, but do you have any direct experience with Jim Smith and David Karmeli setting up your system? I do and I stand by my comments. Comprehensive means every aspect of system set up from electrical delivery to cartridge fine-tuning plus accessory evaluation.

I am not addressing their direct set up in systems - IMO in this hobby rather than giving someone a fish, we should teach them how to fish. But yes we are comparing apples with oranges. Different degrees of expertise in different areas, very different styles and groups. Jim Smith is known among serious audiophiles, reviewers, and high-end manufacturers - he is quite respected and recognized as an authority on the art of setup and system tuning all over the world.

BTW, it is not just the book. DVDs, site, forum, magazines and net presence. We can learn from all them.

 

[PeterA]

I am not addressing their direct set up in systems - IMO in this hobby rather than giving someone a fish, we should teach them how to fish. But yes we are comparing apples with oranges.

Since I am sharing my direct experience about two well-known set up people, I can agree that we are definitely discussing different approaches. I hired Jim Smith to adjust my speakers in my room. He spent a day and a half doing it and was not successful integrating subwoofers so we abandoned the subwoofers. Two of my friends also hired him to do similar services. As far as I know, they have not discussed their experiences here, even though they are members. To use your analogy, Jim did a nice job and improved the sound of my system by giving me a fish.

David Karmeli, has a very different approach. He guided my learning and taught me how to fish. He spent a little over a month helping me with my former system remotely, suggesting changes and encouraging me to listen and report back to him. I documented the changes using video and we discussed the results. We analyzed everything from speaker location to acoustic treatment and accessories.

Then when I bought a turntable from him, he gave me the specific tools and knowledge to set up the turntable, the tone arm, and the cartridge. He told me which records to listen to, and what to listen for while I made the adjustments for the changes. It was a great education and he exhibited much patience. I learned the skills which I continue to use today and have helped others set up their turntables.

When I bought my new system, I set it all up, and then he came and visited to inspect the set up and help me fine tune it. The whole process was interactive, and I learned by doing. He did not charge a fee. In this case, we analyze everything from power delivery to room treatment to equipment supports.

Different degrees of expertise in different areas, very different styles and groups. Jim Smith is known among serious audiophiles, reviewers, and high-end manufacturers - he is quite respected and recognized as an authority on the art of setup and system tuning all over the world.

David sells turntables and other gear around the world and travels to his clients to set them up. Very few of them participate on this forum. You can read his sub forum about some of the turntable set ups.

BTW, it is not just the book. DVDs, site, forum, magazines and net presence. We can learn from all them.

Yes, Jim signed my copy of his book. About ten years ago, I invested in his Kickstarter campaign for his CD and second book. I was promised a signed copy of the new book with a music CD and instructional DVD. I think he is still working on that project. I stopped receiving updates and monthly newsletters years ago. I wish him well and hope he does release that project one day. It would be a nice follow up to his first book with actual music one could hear to gauge progress.

 

[tima]

To use your analogy, Jim did a nice job and improved the sound of my system by giving me a fish.

David Karmeli, has a very different approach. He guided my learning and taught me how to fish.

I liked this nice turn of phrase.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...and @bonzo75 fed the masses?

 

[microstrip]

(...) Jim did the work and gave me the fish. We had a nice dinner. (...)

(...) Yes, Jim gave me a signed copy of his book (...)

Apparently he also tried to teach you how to fish. But it seems you did not read or practice the book.

I have no doubts you learned a lot from DDK. Unfortunately your or his reports were all nice and interesting narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear and have no application to the great majority of the audiophiles. But is always nice to learn about this hobby.

I liked this nice turn of phrase.

(...) To use your analogy, Jim did a nice job and improved the sound of my system by giving me a fish.

David Karmeli, has a very different approach. He guided my learning and taught me how to fish. (...)

My fault, I should have been more clear. I was addressing fish in the ocean, not the few fish in our house fish tanks.

Yes, Jim signed my copy of his book.

(...) Yes, Jim signed my copy of his book.

Apparently he also tried to teach you how to fish. But it seems you did not read or practice the book.

I have no doubts you and others learned a lot from DDK. Unfortunately your or his reports were all nice and interesting narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear and have no application to the great majority of the audiophiles. But learning is always a good thing in this hobby.

 

[Elliot G.]

Apparently he also tried to teach you how to fish. But it seems you did not read or practice the book.

I have no doubts you and others learned a lot from DDK. Unfortunately your or his reports were all nice and interesting narratives on very specific aspects and specific gear and have no application to the great majority of the audiophiles. But learning is always a good thing in this hobby.

I agree DDK may have done a lot for you and helped you with the selection that you made and the one that you defined in your thread however he didn't teach you how to fish.
What he did is he strapped you into the passenger seat of a car as he drove around the track, you didn't drive and I mean this with all due respect .
I had this discussion here before like when Wilson teaches a sales guy the WASP method, the method is valid but knowing how to use the method, how to listen and what to listen for is something that takes time. It is not simple and singular and applicable to every room and every situation.
I have seen this first hand over and over. Everyone wants a clear formula, one that is totally easy and totally works every single time. Guess what it doesn't and learning to use knowledge is just as important as the knowledge. We all hear we earn how to listen and the target is not universal as we see here every single day.