Introducing My System

[Thundersnow]

I had forgotten that this is using pure foil ribbons. I was thinking this was the foil/kapton ribbons, where you have a true 4-5 ohms from the ribbon itself. Not sure how that behavior is with the transformers. I would have thought it behaved the same but I have never played around with a <1 ohm speaker coupled to a transformer to see if it behaves the same or differently from a true resistive load. That said, the midrange is where the magic is...at least from my perspective. Your videos sounds good, although perhaps a bit crispy for my taste, so I am not sure how I would deal with it in long term listening.

True resistive load in my experience acts quite differently from this transformer combo.

With regards to midrange and how to deal with it, I have a very easy and practical way of dealing with it. I can control the tone very effectively with minimal impact on the phase and time coherence with a high shelf Q=0,6 on the MRT. This is how I like the tone as it suits me perfectly. But if you want less zing, it's super easy to do. Here we get into subjective preferences though.

 

[Thundersnow]

Looking forward to your future explorations with your "hint hint" speaker!

What kind of drivers are you looking at?

All shall be revealed in due time

 

[Thundersnow]

On a complete side note, I have to say I am duly impressed with the "mini community" in this thread of mine. I want you to know, all of you guys, that I am VERY glad to have found likeminded, reasonable and passionate individuals about this sport of ours.

Super proud about the "mini WBF community" here.

 

[bonzo75]

Should I try an active horn design *hint, hint* in the near future, things may look different for which amp I use on the mids in that experiment

Are you seriously planning to move from Clarisys to horns before Ron does?

 

[Thundersnow]

True resistive load in my experience acts quite differently from this transformer combo.

With regards to midrange and how to deal with it, I have a very easy and practical way of dealing with it. I can control the tone very effectively with minimal impact on the phase and time coherence with a high shelf Q=0,6 on the MRT. This is how I like the tone as it suits me perfectly. But if you want less zing, it's super easy to do. Here we get into subjective preferences though.

At the danger of sounding too technical here, you are right, in the sense that I am taking this approach in active system design very carefully. The main culprit for the rise of the MRT in the presence region 1-3khz is the transformer, which not only messes with the load but transformer leakage inductance + ribbon capacitance = resonant circuit. Add to that that the Lundahl transformer is meant to be used for applications of 3khz+ and yet it has to toil through 500hz and upwards, etc., etc. So by working in a true ribbon tweeter and going with a bipolar configuration, you could say that the design introduced as many drawbacks as it did advantages.

With that said, the most dangerous and most common mistake in active system design is overdoing it and overcompensating. So, this is very much an iterative process. And with that said, I agree with you that the sound could use LESS energy in the presence region making it less harsh, crispy (call it what you will) but all the while PRESERVING the sparkle and the delicacy of the top end on the 300B tubes.

I've just done some additional calculations and applied a "mini BBC dip" approach which yielded fantastic results, once and for all taming the MRT driver (which is the toughest one to handle in this setup).

I'll make some videos in the future once I validate the setup through listening.

PS I am realizing now that I am beginning to sound like the DIY nutters from the Apogee forums of ole', but alas, such is my mental framework

 

[Thundersnow]

Are you seriously planning to move from Clarisys to horns before Ron does?

Along the way, and in some ways agreeing with my buddy @Golum here (and you wrt horns), I think the only two speaker designs that are appealing to me are planars and horns, obviously for very different reasons. I have been a naysayer with regards to horns for many years, but I am coming around. It's the inherent energy of music combined with the SET appeal that you just can't overlook if you are being honest about your audiophile journey.

However, what REALLY changed my mind is the level of control I have in VOICING the speaker in exactly the way I want it with the active system. And that makes me confident I can get these excellently crafted horns with top notch drivers up to the level of my own sound standards.

I will not give up on the planars, time and again I keep coming back to them for their own specific strengths. But I also absolutely want to get the excitement of an orchestral recording I hear in your videos. I know that videos are often shun upon and dismissed, but I personally CANNOT deny what I've heard in several of these videos. And of course, the live examples I've heard all over the world.

So expect videos with both sets of speakers in the picture

 

[Golum]

Are you seriously planning to move from Clarisys to horns before Ron does?

Rather think along the lines of two systems not 'moving to'...

 

[bonzo75]

I will not give up on the planars, time and again I keep coming back to them for their own specific strengths. But I also absolutely want to get the excitement of an orchestral recording I hear in your videos. I know that videos are often shun upon and dismissed, but I personally CANNOT deny what I've heard in several of these videos.

Maybe I should reword my question. Did you move from Clarisys to believing in videos before Ron?

 

[morricab]

At the danger of sounding too technical here, you are right, in the sense that I am taking this approach in active system design very carefully. The main culprit for the rise of the MRT in the presence region 1-3khz is the transformer, which not only messes with the load but transformer leakage inductance + ribbon capacitance = resonant circuit. Add to that that the Lundahl transformer is meant to be used for applications of 3khz+ and yet it has to toil through 500hz and upwards, etc., etc. So by working in a true ribbon tweeter and going with a bipolar configuration, you could say that the design introduced as many drawbacks as it did advantages.

With that said, the most dangerous and most common mistake in active system design is overdoing it and overcompensating. So, this is very much an iterative process. And with that said, I agree with you that the sound could use LESS energy in the presence region making it less harsh, crispy (call it what you will) but all the while PRESERVING the sparkle and the delicacy of the top end on the 300B tubes.

I've just done some additional calculations and applied a "mini BBC dip" approach which yielded fantastic results, once and for all taming the MRT driver (which is the toughest one to handle in this setup).

I'll make some videos in the future once I validate the setup through listening.

PS I am realizing now that I am beginning to sound like the DIY nutters from the Apogee forums of ole', but alas, such is my mental framework

Is there another, better suited transformer or will the resonant circuit be there regardless? I wonder if this is why Apogee moved away from this approach after their first speaker (the only one to use transformers), or did they have compensation their crossover?

 

[morricab]

Along the way, and in some ways agreeing with my buddy @Golum here (and you wrt horns), I think the only two speaker designs that are appealing to me are planars and horns, obviously for very different reasons. I have been a naysayer with regards to horns for many years, but I am coming around. It's the inherent energy of music combined with the SET appeal that you just can't overlook if you are being honest about your audiophile journey.

However, what REALLY changed my mind is the level of control I have in VOICING the speaker in exactly the way I want it with the active system. And that makes me confident I can get these excellently crafted horns with top notch drivers up to the level of my own sound standards.

I will not give up on the planars, time and again I keep coming back to them for their own specific strengths. But I also absolutely want to get the excitement of an orchestral recording I hear in your videos. I know that videos are often shun upon and dismissed, but I personally CANNOT deny what I've heard in several of these videos. And of course, the live examples I've heard all over the world.

So expect videos with both sets of speakers in the picture

The only two speaker types I have owned in the last 20 years weee planars and horns…a similar trajectory…

 

[morricab]

Rather think along the lines of two systems not 'moving to'...

I can get behind that …

 

[Golum]

I can get behind that …

Oh yeah - ideal scenario to have these both types

 

[morricab]

Oh yeah - ideal scenario to have these both types

No space really for big planars anymore. But had a bunch in the past.

 

[morricab]

 

[Thundersnow]

Is there another, better suited transformer or will the resonant circuit be there regardless? I wonder if this is why Apogee moved away from this approach after their first speaker (the only one to use transformers), or did they have compensation their crossover?

None better suited that I could find. You can compensate with a high shelf quite easily. The trick is without the AMT driver you cannot effectively do it if you use Clarisys Studio Plus as a 2-way design (as it's being sold). So for its "out of the box" 2-way design I don't like the transformer.

 

[Thundersnow]

View attachment 160467

I love Odeon's horns. Loved them with the NAT gear in Vienna last year and in Munich this year.

 

[morricab]

I love Odeon's horns. Loved them with the NAT gear in Vienna last year and in Munich this year.

We will be using this speaker for the FAS Zurich show this coming weekend with Aries Cerat.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Will we get a report this year , you still haven't presented last year report as promised, i did hear you are persona non grata in certain rooms

We will be using this speaker for the FAS Zurich show this coming weekend with Aries Cerat.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I had forgotten that this is using pure foil ribbons. I was thinking this was the foil/kapton ribbons, where you have a true 4-5 ohms from the ribbon itself. Not sure how that behavior is with the transformers. I would have thought it behaved the same but I have never played around with a <1 ohm speaker coupled to a transformer to see if it behaves the same or differently from a true resistive load. That said, the midrange is where the magic is...at least from my perspective. Your videos sounds good, although perhaps a bit crispy for my taste, so I am not sure how I would deal with it in long term listening.

4-5 ohm , not possible from a ribbon diaphragm with a few traces ..!

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

I think the only two speaker designs that are appealing to me are planars and horns

Idem ( + Stenheim)

The only two speaker types I have owned in the last 20 years were planars and horns…a similar trajectory…

The only two speaker types I have owned in the last 20 years were planars. I have never got horns (yet !)

We will be using this speaker [Odeon Semper] for the FAS Zurich show this coming weekend with Aries Cerat.

I wish I had a teleportation cabin... Grrrrrr !

@Thundersnow , that Mundorf AMT27D1.1 dipole tweeter seems intriguing (positively). But why did you add it to the Clarisys (you may have explained that earlier, sorry)? Does the AMT complement the Clarisys' tweeter, or does it replace it (= the tweeter is now off) ?
What is the crossover frequency ? (with the Clarisys' midrange, or tweeter)
Fascinating system !
Thanks