Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[JiminGa]

Industry affiliation is defined by what someone does, not by discounts or what someone pays for a component. There is a resonably defined set of group memberships that are acknowledged as who has industry affiliation. The groups I know about include:

Manufacturers
Distributors
Dealers
Publishers and Reviewers from recognized audio publications.

I believe those are the same as ascribed to members here in this forum.

I agree. I think Elliot is concerned about less formal arrangements

 

[tima]

If one is expected to promote a certain product or products, and gets an accommodation or severe discount for doing so, then yes. That is clearly an industry affiliation and should be disclosed for full transparency.

I think audio industry affiliation is the concept of membership in a known audio industry group.
What you're describing is payola.

 

[treitz3]

Thanks for your reply, Tom. It tells me I should have more specific in my question. I think I know the answer but I'll try again: Apart from activities outside of wbf, do wbf moderators have industry affiliation in virtue of being wbf moderators?

No. We aren't selling anything, we aren't influencing anything, we get no discounts or special treatment from other industry folks and we don't make deals or negotiate anything. We are not affiliated with writing reviews for any magazine or online rag, we have no book deals and absolutely no industry influence whatsoever. We are all just regular members who also moderate a forum that discusses audio.

Tom

 

[Tangram]

The issue is in defining “ industry affiliation”. If someone gets 55% discounts on gear that they post positively about is that an industry affiliation? Lots of people get 10% discounts, what’s the line?

I’d be surprised if B&W or Macintosh or Klipsch are doling out 55% discounts when people say nice things about their products. But when someone starts a thread stating that some obscure ethernet switch literally changed their life, I proceed with caution. In fact, I just assume a discount was involved. It’s no different than being cautious with reviewers since they receive accommodation pricing. I find this practice utterly ludicrous and unethical even if it’s stated. It’s not my fault reviewers get paid next to nothing.

 

[wil]

What measurement numbers count and why they count as the best is a subjective decision. There are paradigms consisting of reasons and beliefs that support what we think is true. Paradigms shift.

I don't see that people are 'struggling' with the difference between the objective and the subjective. And I don't see much in the way of intentionally confusing or conflating what those terms mean or how they are applied. I think there is an imprecision in the language and sometimes the logic in what people say.

I do see a handful of posters, one in particular, constantly using "... but that is only your subjective personal opinion" as a form of argument. Denigrating opinion as such, especially without offering a different opinion, is a trick or bullsh*t response.

I agree there is a certain sensitivity among some posters that require them to object to what someone says if they don't see an imo in their post. Simply assume that every single post is the opinion or viewpoit of the writer, don't expect self-deprecation for it to be palatable.

Well said, but I would just add that in some some very particular cases, where someone’s opinions are arrogantly and unremittingly put forth as if recited from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that an occasional “in my experience/opinion” would make them more palatable.

 

[wil]

I’d be surprised if B&W or Macintosh or Klipsch are doling out 55% discounts when people say nice things about their products. But when someone starts a thread stating that some obscure ethernet switch literally changed their life, I proceed with caution. In fact, I just assume a discount was involved. It’s no different than being cautious with reviewers since they receive accommodation pricing. I find this practice utterly ludicrous and unethical even if it’s stated. It’s not my fault reviewers get paid next to nothing.

Always proceed with caution!

 

[Elliot G.]

I think audio industry affiliation is the concept of membership in a known audio industry group.
What you're describing is payola.

Industry affiliation is just a category its not fully inclusive of the possible ways influence is wielded and perhaps purchased.
Today there are many "influencers" and those trying to influence both the influencers and gen pop.
For example a reviewer getting a long term loan with no return date, say a 400k pair of speakers that the reviewer could never ever afford, that remain in their possession until the useful market life has passed . IMO that is a not so grey area of influence. You may diasagree but I know that if someone gave stuff like that to me it would be in my interest to make sure they are not displeased.

 

[Kcin]

Industry affiliation is defined by what someone does, not by discounts or what someone pays for a component. There is a resonably defined set of group memberships that are acknowledged as who has industry affiliation. The groups I know about include:

Manufacturers
Distributors
Dealers
Publishers and Reviewers from recognized audio publications.

I believe those are the same as ascribed to members here in this forum.

This is a very traditional list.

What of internet forum principal's or social media influencers that use their communication platforms to review, comment and be enthusiastic directly on products or services on those platforms? What if these influencers or platform owners are also selling equipment ,services , unique forum space or advertising on their media ?

Should they be identified as industry affiliates with the same rules that might apply to your list? This is to allow for all us to "formally" take with a grain of salt anything that is communicated by these persons on their media platforms.

There is no accounting for taste- however, its difficult to embrace the enthusiasm by industry affiliates without wrapping it all around their relative conflict of interest.

 

[microstrip]

@treitz3
Why am I a well know member and not industry. Is what I do so unimportant. I think my feelings are hurt.

Do you realize that after someone gets an industry qualifier serious audiophiles will consider your advice as biased and should feel free to question your technical points?

 

[Legolas]

I think more generally the global status of high end audio purchase price is a murky subject. Most brands I would suggest are against any discounts, definitely publically. It destroys a brand, and ensures a race to the bottom. A distributor or dealer normally has to sign some form of agreement to work with that brand, not offer large discounts. It is a dangerous area.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think more generally the global status of high end audio purchase price is a murky subject. Most brands I would suggest are against any discounts, definitely publically. It destroys a brand, and ensures a race to the bottom. A distributor or dealer normally has to sign some form of agreement to work with that brand, not offer large discounts. It is a dangerous area.

that is not true. Price fixing is illegal here in the USA.

 

[Kingrex]

Do you realize that after someone gets an industry qualifier serious audiophiles will consider your advice as biased and should feel free to question your technical points?

To much pressure. I guess I have to quit posting.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

that is not true. Price fixing is illegal here in the USA.

correct.

OTOH there are distribution tools manufacturers can use in some industries to have an influence. so there are degrees of control. in some industries like the car business all the customer transactional data is given to the manufacturers as part of the relationship dealers have and for warranty/recall purposes. yet the manufacturers are not allowed to use that data illegally.

wink wink, market conditions do cause some pressure now and then. but it's subtle.

if the manufacturer wants to put pressure on a dealer to improve his facilities then it might pressure dealers around him to raise their prices so the numbers can work. maybe just the hot sellers. it happens. so they reduce the inventory to these competing dealers for a time to make their point. it works. imagine that.

i'm sure stuff like that happens here and there.

 

[microstrip]

To much pressure. I guess I have to quit posting.

Please no. Stay as an Well-Known Member - we enjoy your posts!

 

[PeterA]

This is a very traditional list.

What of internet forum principal's or social media influencers that use their communication platforms to review, comment and be enthusiastic directly on products or services on those platforms? What if these influencers or platform owners are also selling equipment ,services , unique forum space or advertising on their media ?

Should they be identified as industry affiliates with the same rules that might apply to your list? This is to allow for all us to "formally" take with a grain of salt anything that is communicated by these persons on their media platforms.

There is no accounting for taste- however, its difficult to embrace the enthusiasm by industry affiliates without wrapping it all around their relative conflict of interest.

Nice post Kcin. I agree there are influencers who have various interests, as do the forum owners and YouTube channel owners. For instance, I would think the owners here have an interest in the well being and growth of the high end industry including encouraging a convivial tone in the various forums because this is good for their business. In such an atmosphere, more industry focused than before, and less hobbyist focused, the result is that most to all products are good, they just may not be someone's cup of tea or preference. One now sees very few disparaging comments about gear. It's all good, and that is good for business. I understand that and do not criticise it. I just take every influencer's comments with caution and ultimately make my decisions based not on what someone writes, but on what I hear and my own judgement from what I can learn about a product. Proceed with caution just as with most things.

I do here disparaging comments about gear I have not heard in private conversations. The gap between what gets discussed publicly and in private is growing. In my opinion, the magazines went from interesting information to marketing and entertainment. Forums are somewhere in between but they are evolving, and moving ever closer to the marketing and entertainment category.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?........​

If people are not satisfied with the content then post something interesting yourself . (not commercial )
If some threads are to commercial ... dont read them simple , no forum will be perfect ,WBF is still quit OK in that regard

 

[Elliot G.]

Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?........​

If people are not satisfied with the content then post something interesting yourself . (not commercial )
If some threads are to commercial ... dont read them simple , no forum will be perfect ,WBF is still quit OK in that regard

I'm sorry that perhaps in you country freedom of speech and freedom of expression is not ok. You don't get to tell me or anyone else what we can read, write or say. Having an open discussion is actually how we bring issues to light and hopefully solve them.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Blah blah blah .
You yourself are all about commerce as well.
Pot blaming the kettle

 

[JiminGa]

I’d be surprised if B&W or Macintosh or Klipsch are doling out 55% discounts when people say nice things about their products. But when someone starts a thread stating that some obscure ethernet switch literally changed their life, I proceed with caution. In fact, I just assume a discount was involved. It’s no different than being cautious with reviewers since they receive accommodation pricing. I find this practice utterly ludicrous and unethical even if it’s stated. It’s not my fault reviewers get paid next to nothing.

I’d be surprised if B&W or Macintosh or Klipsch are doling out 55% discounts when people say nice things about their products. But when someone starts a thread stating that some obscure ethernet switch literally changed their life, I proceed with caution. In fact, I just assume a discount was involved. It’s no different than being cautious with reviewers since they receive accommodation pricing. I find this practice utterly ludicrous and unethical even if it’s stated. It’s not my fault reviewers get paid next to nothing.

Each company has its own policy about offering accommodation pricing. They do it when they see it as in their interest to do it.

 

[JiminGa]

I think more generally the global status of high end audio purchase price is a murky subject. Most brands I would suggest are against any discounts, definitely publically. It destroys a brand, and ensures a race to the bottom. A distributor or dealer normally has to sign some form of agreement to work with that brand, not offer large discounts. It is a dangerous area.

They are almost never public. That’s the point.