Has the focus of the forum shifted? Is it the marketing, promotion and cheerleading arm of selected companies? Has advertising changed the landscape?

[treitz3]

The issue is in defining “ industry affiliation”. If someone gets 55% discounts on gear that they post positively about is that an industry affiliation? Lots of people get 10% discounts, what’s the line?

If someone gets a discount or other consideration in exchange for promoting product, how would you label it? Does that person have an obligation to disclose such?

Folks get discounts for lots of things and that finger is one that (and I do not speak for the admin/moderating team here on this) is hard to impossible to point at a certain threshold. That said, a member should know if they are affiliated with the industry or not. I, for one, would love to get a 55% discount. If I did on a certain product, I would disclose it.

Personally, I do not believe that a nominal discount for being a repeat customer, getting a clearance item or an item on sale really qualifies for industry affiliation for obvious reasons. But when one actively promotes something, with the clear expectation or agreement to a discount or accommodation for doing so? Yes, that should be disclosed for complete transparency. Maybe not in your signature (unless it is a consistent thing) but in the post(s) about said product you had accommodations for. If one is expected to promote a certain product or products, and gets an accommodation or severe discount for doing so, then yes. That is clearly an industry affiliation and should be disclosed for full transparency.

Even though these are fair questions, I did not mean for this to get into the nitty gritty of percentages and this and that. Basically, folks know full well if they are affiliated with the industry, and at the end of the day, they should disclose that fact. Whether it's for one purchase, one brand or a handful of brands. Again, these are my opinions, spoken as a fellow member of the WBF. None of the aforementioned should be viewed as opinions or directives from the forum owners, nor the moderating team. Here is the actual TOS line item that discusses industry affiliation.

13. If you work in any industry relevant to the topics discussed in our forum, you must show that clearly in your signature. While we encourage our industry insiders to use their real names (or parts thereof), aliases are allowed as user names.

Tom

 

[pk_LA]

Folks get discounts for lots of things and that finger is one that (and I do not speak for the admin/moderating team here on this) is hard to impossible to point at a certain threshold. That said, a member should know if they are affiliated with the industry or not. I, for one, would love to get a 55% discount. If I did on a certain product, I would disclose it.

Personally, I do not believe that a nominal discount for being a repeat customer, getting a clearance item or an item on sale really qualifies for industry affiliation for obvious reasons. But when one actively promotes something, with the clear expectation or agreement to a discount or accommodation for doing so? Yes, that should be disclosed for complete transparency. Maybe not in your signature (unless it is a consistent thing) but in the post(s) about said product you had accommodations for. If one is expected to promote a certain product or products, and gets an accommodation or severe discount for doing so, then yes. That is clearly an industry affiliation and should be disclosed for full transparency.

Even though these are fair questions, I did not mean for this to get into the nitty gritty of percentages and this and that. Basically, folks know full well if they are affiliated with the industry, and at the end of the day, they should disclose that fact. Whether it's for one purchase, one brand or a handful of brands. Again, these are my opinions, spoken as a fellow member of the WBF. None of the aforementioned should be viewed as opinions or directives from the forum owners, nor the moderating team. Here is the actual TOS line item that discusses industry affiliation.

13. If you work in any industry relevant to the topics discussed in our forum, you must show that clearly in your signature. While we encourage our industry insiders to use their real names (or parts thereof), aliases are allowed as user names.

Tom

I appreciate the response, Tom - thank you.

Allow me to nudge one step further. Is it fair to say that the stakeholders of WBF have an inherent affiliation and/or conflict of interest given that the business depends on revenue from the same manufacturers that often get exuberantly promoted?

 

[PeterA]

Agree, mostly. And, would add:

I often wonder why people struggle so much with the difference between “subjective” and “objective” and, many times, purposefully conflate the two. Perhaps, it is the modern day agenda to banish any kind of objective truth while at the same time squelching “rugged” individualism naturally spilling over into every facet of life…including audiophilia, simply for the purpose of gaining monetary reward and/or (perceived) intellectual prowess.

There IS a best [objectively] in terms of measurements. For this, there can be a declared best…until it is bested.

There IS a best [for any given person, subjectively] in terms of personal preference. And, this is subject to change without notice.

The two are NOT the same. They may coincide.

Neither one is a particular evil.

Why that has to be repeated so often and why it is so often dismissed is a product of arrogance and selfishness.

If we could have forum participants acknowledge and live by that most forums would be awesome places to be IMnotsoHO. Until then, the grain of salt I need to get through many threads (and side step many attitudes) has grown larger than my house.

I tried declaring a best cartridge and started a thread about it. It only caused trouble. I have no problem acknowledging that some component measures better and then best relative to others. And I realize that what is subjectively preferred for one is not the same as for another. I actually do not see the conflict that you are describing. I think most members here understand the distinction, though it is not completely clear in all instances. And sometimes, the two do overlap or get conflated when there is sufficient consensus. I do not know who is struggling though, nor do I think the distinction needs to be repeated so often as you suggest.

Could you point to any examples where someone here declared something as the best? Or an example of arrogance and selfishness as a result of such a declaration?

I did referring to the Neumann DST cartridge based on the fact that many have stated that it is the best they have heard. It remains highly coveted and is extremely expensive if you can find one for sale. I tried to make an argument on objective grounds but failed. I do consider it the best on subjective grounds, and I am certainly not alone. Almost without exception, everyone I have talked to who has heard the cartridge and compared it to others has told me it is the best. Is that objective or subjective? Anyway, many were offended by the suggestion, and the thread went nowhere fast.

Here is another question: What if two things measure the same but there is an overwhelming preference for one or the other? Or what if the poorer measuring thing is much preferred by those who have done the comparison? Can we even speak in terms of what is best at that point? "Best" must then be qualified. Do we mean best based on preference or best based on measurements? The name of this forum certainly does not qualify it, and is actually quite vague.

 

[treitz3]

I appreciate the response, Tom - thank you.

Allow me to nudge one step further. Is it fair to say that the stakeholders of WBF have an inherent affiliation and/or conflict of interest given that the business depends on revenue from the same manufacturers that often get exuberantly promoted?

Oh, chit. That's a can of worms I ain't touchin' with a 10' pole!

I have my own opinions, very strong opinions on this actually, but I will choose to zip my lips and apply super glue on this one. Anything else I say will be "read between the lines", as taking one side or another, pointing fingers or singling folks out. I think I'll simply slide out of this discussion before anything else is said on that front. I'll leave this up to you all to discuss again.

Tom

 

[pk_LA]

Oh, chit. That's a can of worms I ain't touchin' with a 10' pole!

I have my own opinions, very strong opinions on this actually, but I will choose to zip my lips and apply super glue on this one. Anything else I say will be "read between the lines", as taking one side or another, pointing fingers or singling folks out. I think I'll simply slide out of this discussion before anything else is said on that front. I'll leave this up to you all to discuss again.

Tom

I hear you! And, I appreciate your candor!

 

[microstrip]

(...) Here is the actual TOS line item that discusses industry affiliation.

13. If you work in any industry relevant to the topics discussed in our forum, you must show that clearly in your signature. While we encourage our industry insiders to use their real names (or parts thereof), aliases are allowed as user names.

Tom

Tom,
Being immune to marketing, promotion and cheerleading in audio, I think our TOS is powerful enough to deal with clear industry affiliation.

However, promotion has sometimes a nasty effect in threads - any effort to question or debate anything being said by the promoters is immediately considered an attack to the product or brand and asked to silence or move to another thread. It is great to have a forum where we can have first hand news and private information before any one else, but I think promotion must be also ruled to avoid the malaise due to such situations. IMO, YMMV.

 

[Holmz]

Oh, chit. That's a can of worms I ain't touchin' with a 10' pole!

I have my own opinions, very strong opinions on this actually, but I will choose to zip my lips and apply super glue on this one. Anything else I say will be "read between the lines", as taking one side or another, pointing fingers or singling folks out. I think I'll simply slide out of this discussion before anything else is said on that front. I'll leave this up to you all to discuss again.

Tom

Nor a 3m pole.

 

[Iamrael]

Thanks for proving my point. This is why forum threads devolve. It is akin to correcting someone’s typo instead of addressing the topic at hand.

So for you, I will clarify.

There is a condition of meeting an objective or coming measurably closer to that objective than a competitor aspiring to the same measured objective. I have no interest in semantics so, that is as far as I will go.

My grain of salt just got even bigger, sadly

Rest assured my post was beyond merely a semantics gripe else I wouldn’t have bothered to comment, so no need to be sad about your grain of salt.
Others have posted with what seems to be similar view as mine since, so need to elaborate further other than
the only thing that you could say for example about an amp with the lowest distortion is that it will have the least fuzzy sine wave on an oscilloscope (all other things being equal) but
Your post goes beyond that and asserts that it is the best amplifier.

 

[Kingrex]

I tried declaring a best cartridge and started a thread about it. It only caused trouble. I have no problem acknowledging that some component measures better and then best relative to others. And I realize that what is subjectively preferred for one is not the same as for another. I actually do not see the conflict that you are describing. I think most members here understand the distinction, though it is not completely clear in all instances. And sometimes, the two do overlap or get conflated when there is sufficient consensus. I do not know who is struggling though, nor do I think the distinction needs to be repeated so often as you suggest.

Could you point to any examples where someone here declared something as the best? Or an example of arrogance and selfishness as a result of such a declaration?

I did referring to the Neumann DST cartridge based on the fact that many have stated that it is the best they have heard. It remains highly coveted and is extremely expensive if you can find one for sale. I tried to make an argument on objective grounds but failed. I do consider it the best on subjective grounds, and I am certainly not alone. Almost without exception, everyone I have talked to who has heard the cartridge and compared it to others has told me it is the best. Is that objective or subjective? Anyway, many were offended by the suggestion, and the thread went nowhere fast.

Here is another question: What if two things measure the same but there is an overwhelming preference for one or the other? Or what if the poorer measuring thing is much preferred by those who have done the comparison? Can we even speak in terms of what is best at that point? "Best" must then be qualified. Do we mean best based on preference or best based on measurements? The name of this forum certainly does not qualify it, and is actually quite vague.

@PHAA_

I.would add.to this. I believe I remember Atmasphere stating just because a SS amp has low distortion numbers, said amp may expose 5th order harmonic that, shall I say, are unpleasant. So even though a tube amp has 1% distortion, its preferable to listen to than the low distortion amp with an exposed 5th harmonic.

So, can you really objectivly evaluate a product. Or do numbers lie.

 

[Kingrex]

@treitz3
Why am I a well know member and not industry. Is what I do so unimportant. I think my feelings are hurt.

 

[treitz3]

@Kingrex, no, not at all. It was my understanding that you were temporarily out of business, as you are currently still working on your house. If you are in fact, still in business, I would be happy to change your designation. Please advise and thanks.

Just for everyone's knowledge, we are slowly changing the designations as we run across them. It is still a work in progress, as we have many members. The team appreciates your patience as we transition.

Tom

 

[Kbh57]

If someone gets a discount or other consideration in exchange for promoting product, how would you label it? Does that person have an obligation to disclose such?

I think this is easy and the answer is a resounding YES. What is described here is a straight quid pro quo. It doesn't mean the opinion is necessarily invalid, but basic integrity should lead a person to disclose that his opinion was bargained for and then readers can reach their own conclusion, all facts at hand. If an item is discounted in the ordinary course of business, that's different-no quid pro quo. The only enforceable rule in these situations is the personal integrity of the parties involved, but I'd like to think most folks here would see the right and wrong of the situation.

So, if one of you guys want to sell me one of those fancy six figure DACs for half off in exchange for my enthusiastic endorsement, I'm happy to deliver, but only if I truly believe that DAC is the best thing since Seven-Up and only if I include a disclosure that my endorsement was bargained for. Let's give it a try.

 

[tima]

Even though these are fair questions, I did not mean for this to get into the nitty gritty of percentages and this and that. Basically, folks know full well if they are affiliated with the industry, and at the end of the day, they should disclose that fact. Whether it's for one purchase, one brand or a handful of brands. Again, these are my opinions, spoken as a fellow member of the WBF. None of the aforementioned should be viewed as opinions or directives from the forum owners, nor the moderating team. Here is the actual TOS line item that discusses industry affiliation.

13. If you work in any industry relevant to the topics discussed in our forum, you must show that clearly in your signature. While we encourage our industry insiders to use their real names (or parts thereof), aliases are allowed as user names.

Simple question: do wbf forum moderators have industry affiliation?

 

[pk_LA]

I appreciate the response, Tom - thank you.

Allow me to nudge one step further. Is it fair to say that the stakeholders of WBF have an inherent affiliation and/or conflict of interest given that the business depends on revenue from the same manufacturers that often get exuberantly promoted?

I feel it is appropriate to follow-up on this.

I am not aware of any WBF stakeholder that has any kind of conflict of interest or accommodation in exchange for promotion. Still, I don't think it's unhealthy to occasionally ask these questions and sort of check ourselves (if you will). That said, I very much appreciate Tom's responses to the queries. If anything, the responses reinforced a sense of credibility and fair play on WBF.

While imperfect, I still do not know of anywhere that combines newbies, seasoned consumers, dealers and manufacturers like WBF does. I don't always agree with various notes (especially those that are contrary to my drivel!) not but I do very much appreciate it!

 

[treitz3]

Simple question: do wbf forum moderators have industry affiliation?

No. None of us, other than being part of the WBF moderating team.

In the past, I know two of us have evaluated products and offered feedback to various manufacturers prior to product launch, but AFAIK, not any more due to having other priorities as well as other life obligations.

Tom

 

[Kingrex]

I charge WBF owners and moderators double to make up for advertising cost I have incurred. Nothing personal. Just a business.

 

[tima]

No. None of us, other than being part of the WBF moderating team.

In the past, I know two of us have evaluated products and offered feedback to various manufacturers prior to product launch, but AFAIK, not any more due to having other priorities as well as other life obligations.

Tom

Thanks for your reply, Tom. It tells me I should have more specific in my question. I think I know the answer but I'll try again: Apart from activities outside of wbf, do wbf moderators have industry affiliation in virtue of being wbf moderators?

 

[Sampajanna]

This is a great thread. I agree with so much: more disclosure is healthy; I have noticed a change in the forum as well and it has turned me away somewhat; also, I am a big fan and think this place is way better than the other forums. In fact, a big part of why this thread is important to me is because I do love it here. I don’t have any answers, just questions. I just wanted to high five the fact that there is a discussion.

 

[tima]

I often wonder why people struggle so much with the difference between “subjective” and “objective” and, many times, purposefully conflate the two. Perhaps, it is the modern day agenda to banish any kind of objective truth while at the same time squelching “rugged” individualism naturally spilling over into every facet of life…including audiophilia, simply for the purpose of gaining monetary reward and/or (perceived) intellectual prowess.

There IS a best [objectively] in terms of measurements. For this, there can be a declared best…until it is bested.

There IS a best [for any given person, subjectively] in terms of personal preference. And, this is subject to change without notice.

What measurement numbers count and why they count as the best is a subjective decision. There are paradigms consisting of reasons and beliefs that support what we think is true. Paradigms shift.

I don't see that people are 'struggling' with the difference between the objective and the subjective. And I don't see much in the way of intentionally confusing or conflating what those terms mean or how they are applied. I think there is an imprecision in the language and sometimes the logic in what people say.

I do see a handful of posters, one in particular, constantly using "... but that is only your subjective personal opinion" as a form of argument. Denigrating opinion as such, especially without offering a different opinion, is a trick or bullsh*t response.

I agree there is a certain sensitivity among some posters that require them to object to what someone says if they don't see an imo in their post. Simply assume that every single post is the opinion or viewpoit of the writer, don't expect self-deprecation for it to be palatable.

 

[tima]

The issue is in defining “ industry affiliation”. If someone gets 55% discounts on gear that they post positively about is that an industry affiliation? Lots of people get 10% discounts, what’s the line?

Industry affiliation is defined by what someone does, not by discounts or what someone pays for a component. There is a resonably defined set of group memberships that are acknowledged as who has industry affiliation. The groups I know about include:

Manufacturers
Distributors
Dealers
Publishers and Reviewers from recognized audio publications.

I believe those are the same as ascribed to members here in this forum.