Ron’s New System

[tima]

i have used a few words to describe this general concept of liquid or liquidity. maybe grain-less or continuous get closer to my intension as these two words don't infer some sort of added warmth or smoothing or rounding. gear can be grain-less, gear can be continuous, and not add warmth.....or very, very minor amounts of it.

Sound is difficult to describe. I thought you did well in your post. And if there is such a thing as liquidity, the Tenor OTL may be the best example of what can deliver it.

 

[gleeds]

i have used a few words to describe this general concept of liquid or liquidity. maybe grain-less or continuous get closer to my intension as these two words don't infer some sort of added warmth or smoothing or rounding. gear can be grain-less, gear can be continuous, and not add warmth.....or very, very minor amounts of it.

and honestly i am a tube guy (Tenor OTL's top of my heap), but prefer the advantages of solid state, and in my experience finding that sort of grain-less and continuous sort of presentation in the darTZeel has been significant for me. other solid state comes up short of this standard to my ears. a matter of over-processed sound. admittedly there are a few newer solid state amplifiers which may match or surpass the darts. just not heard them....yet.

real life is completely grain less. it's completely continuous. there is not sort of feeling of processing to it....also real life has zero added warmth or rounding.

so maybe we might use grain-less (continuous is less clear) to describe that more complete way real life comes thru.

for instance; in 2018 when i did my amplifier head to head for myself; other solid state was not on my agenda. not in my thinking. mostly due to this issue. i found the VAC too liquid, too warm, but still wonderful. i thought the Lamm was closer to real life and not overly liquid and warm. still a tiny bit dark and limited in big music, but more right and real to my ears.

i don't want to get too far over my ski's and exceed my musical vocabulary; but as far as examples when i listen to my string quartets this grain less aspect is very significant. gear that misses the balance point and either is overly warm and rounded (one man's liquid?) or sounding less than completely grain-less and continuous does not make my cut. no place to hide listening to lots of string quartets. it either can do it or not.

of course; finding grain-less music reproduction is not only preamps and amps. it's a whole system issue; and even resonance and acoustic distortion. so system development is part of the picture. but an amp missing that presentation balance point is hard/impossible to overcome.....for me. plenty of nice sounding solid state amps for sure; but they are degrees less grain less to my ears.

Mike, this is one of the best posts I have seen in a while concerning this topic. A reference of sorts for evaluating the finer point of an amplifier's musical delivery!

I will always love the darT 458 and 459 amplifier for their continuity and grainless presentation. After installing them along with the Evo MM7s at a client, it was the first time in 40 years of doing this that I heard no amplifier at all. This is the magic and a benchmark for others to emulate.

I have approached this "amp-lessness" with the WestminsterLab monos, mainly in combination with an exceptional 6SN7 tube preamplifier. In December, I have a set of parallel single-end DHT tube monos (65 watts per channel) arriving from Trafomatic, and am wondering what they will bring to the proceedings.

 

[chuck]

Hi Chuck!

Just a personal, subjective example for my ears to rebut Dasgute's dogmatic assertion that hybrid preamps are the worst of both worlds.

Again, I have enormous respect for Boulder. The company is one of the super high class acts in the industry. The engineering is amazing; the build quality is astounding; the reliability and the manufacturer support are as good as it gets in this industry. The components achieve precisely the sonic attributes they are aiming for.

It just doesn't happen to be my sonic cup of tea. I truly am delighted for you that it is your cup of tea!

Seems more like clickbait. But to play along, Boulder states that the 3010 ". . . is quite simply the cleanest, most detailed and accurate preamplifier ever built." You agree. I listened to many preamps when I replaced the ARC Ref40 and the 3010 is as described.

But it is not your sonic "cup of tea." To me, it seems you don't want to taste the tea. The tea is just a platform upon which to pile on sweeteners and cream.

 

[Porsche]

Seems more like clickbait. But to play along, Boulder states that the 3010 ". . . is quite simply the cleanest, most detailed and accurate preamplifier ever built." You agree. I listened to many preamps when I replaced the ARC Ref40 and the 3010 is as described.

But it is not your sonic "cup of tea." To me, it seems you don't want to taste the tea. The tea is just a platform upon which to pile on sweeteners and cream.

boulder all day long, superb gear

 

[Al M.]

Seems more like clickbait.

Are we being a little sensitive, maybe?

 

[morricab]

No, I just pointed our readers the sources in way they can assert our different points of view.



Sorry I was not aware you got the Nobel price in physics this year. I had read something about the tunnel effect ...







Your particular preference in a particular case again...



Ok, thanks . Just learned a new synonymous for "critical listener" - fanatic lover or dealer of a specif brand of high-end equipment.

But yes, my views on stereo are most of the time open minded - there is life outside my preferences in this hobby.

The divide between SS sound and tube sound, particularly SETs, is as wide as it’s ever been. If technology has improved the sound of SS and tubes so much then how do you explain the ongoing differences that are easily heard and rarely mistaken?? It is fundamental in the devices and how they are used…aka physics.
You are dead wrong. I don’t refer to a specific brand, I do refer to specific technologies.

 

[morricab]

Sure, you are so perceptive and critical, and everyone who disagrees with you is not.

Great way to "win" an argument.

I am not trying to “win” anything Al, besides who made you judge?

 

[Legolas]

The divide between SS sound and tube sound, particularly SETs, is as wide as it’s ever been. If technology has improved the sound of SS and tubes so much then how do you explain the ongoing differences that are easily heard and rarely mistaken?? It is fundamental in the devices and how they are used…aka physics.
You are dead wrong. I don’t refer to a specific brand, I do refer to specific technologies.

I agree. For me my 'safe place' is SS class A. I also love SETs, and also the new Aries Cerat Triode Fet amps. But as you state, they all sound different.

 

[PeterA]

The divide between SS sound and tube sound, particularly SETs, is as wide as it’s ever been. If technology has improved the sound of SS and tubes so much then how do you explain the ongoing differences that are easily heard and rarely mistaken?? It is fundamental in the devices and how they are used…aka physics.
You are dead wrong. I don’t refer to a specific brand, I do refer to specific technologies.

I think I agree with you, but I do not have the knowledge or experience to really know the differences independent of the speakers that the amps are driving, with all else being equal. There are very few speakers that a good SET can drive properly, and I suppose one could put a SS amp on that speaker and listen. One can not really assess the other way around. I did hook up my old Pass Aleph 3 to my Vitavox once, a 30 watt Class A, single ended design that is such a lovely design that I kept it. It sounded great, but indeed different. I got some bushback for the positive comparison as I recall. I would also like to hear some of the new FirstWatt SIT monos for comparison.

 

[morricab]

I think I agree with you, but I do not have the knowledge or experience to really know the differences independent of the speakers that the amps are driving, with all else being equal. There are very few speakers that a good SET can drive properly, and I suppose one could put a SS amp on that speaker and listen. One can not really assess the other way around. I did hook up my old Pass Aleph 3 to my Vitavox once, a 30 watt Class A, single ended design that is such a lovely design that I kept it. It sounded great, but indeed different. I got some bushback for the positive comparison as I recall. I would also like to hear some of the new FirstWatt SIT monos for comparison.

The question you should ask is WHY don’t big, powerful SS amps sound good on those kinds of speakers that sound good with SETs or as you say SS amps that are closer in design to SETs? If they are so pure and neutral then it should work great…but I can tell you from my own and many others experience it usually doesn’t work at all.

 

[PeterA]

The question you should ask is WHY don’t big, powerful SS amps sound good on those kinds of speakers that sound good with SETs or as you say SS amps that are closer in design to SETs? If they are so pure and neutral then it should work great…but I can tell you from my own and many others experience it usually doesn’t work at all.

That’s a good question, Brad. If I had the interest, I would spend the time listening to more examples. I’m just not that driven to investigate. Pardon the pun.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The question you should ask is WHY don’t big, powerful SS amps sound good on those kinds of speakers that sound good with SETs or as you say SS amps that are closer in design to SETs?

last time i spoke to Jacob Heilbrunn, he mentioned he still prefers the solid state darTZeel 468's overall on his AG G3's to any of the tubed amps he has tried including some SET's. not that he does not also like the tubed choices. the 468's do have zero feedback and low signal path parts count in common with SET's.

that's just one anecdotal data point, but a great first watt is a doable thing for solid state.....and solid state has it's attributes.

i think 115 db efficient does expose any amp to close scrutiny about noise and refinement.

If they are so pure and neutral then it should work great…but I can tell you from my own and many others experience it usually doesn’t work at all.

my guess is that the Robert Koda K-160'S might also be a good fit.

 

[morricab]

last time i spoke to Jacob Heilbrunn, he mentioned he still prefers the solid state darTZeel 468's overall on his AG G3's to any of the tubed amps he has tried including some SET's. not that he does not also like the tubed choices. the 468's do have zero feedback and low signal path parts count in common with SET's.

that's just one anecdotal data point, but a great first watt is a doable thing for solid state.....and solid state has it's attributes.

i think 115 db efficient does expose any amp to close scrutiny about noise and refinement.

my guess is that the Robert Koda K-160'S might also be a good fit.

It’s interesting that one of the few horns people seem to like using high power transistors on seems to be Avantgarde. I have a hypothesis on why this is. AG seems to be the only major horn company that actively promotes their speakers with SS amps and have done so for a couple decades at least. They have been programming buyers to look favorably on their speakers paired with SS…now Itron, which to my ears is a disaster (there are tons of them for sale in Europe, either used or demo because they can’t sell them).

I personally have heard more than a dozen different AGs from different eras and only found them good sounding with tubes…usually SET.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I personally have heard more than a dozen different AGs from different eras and only found them good sounding with tubes…usually SET.

+1

 

[morricab]

+1

I have been very close to buying AGa a few times but each time something holds me back. Last year I heard the Uno G3 with a 300b amp and was very close. Almost bought a Duo XD earlier this year but there is something that concerns me about long term listening…

 

[bonzo75]

I have been very close to buying AGa a few times but each time something holds me back. Last year I heard the Uno G3 with a 300b amp and was very close. Almost bought a Duo XD earlier this year but there is something that concerns me about long term listening…

After a few more years maybe you will hear what I realised very quickly - but hey, till then feel free to mislead others into buying it

 

[DasguteOhr]

Sound is difficult to describe. I thought you did well in your post. And if there is such a thing as liquidity, the Tenor OTL may be the best example of what can deliver it.

There are transistor combinations that can do this. For example, Klyne 7lx preamp with Pass Aleph0 mono amps. In combination with a Martin Logan CLS. I have rarely heard such clean liquid, high-resolution, grain-free sound.

 

[tima]

There are transistor combinations that can do this. For example, Klyne 7lx preamp with Pass Aleph0 mono amps. In combination with a Martin Logan CLS. I have rarely heard such clean liquid, high-resolution, grain-free sound.

Okay, thanks for that. I can only comment on what I've heard. The first time I heard the 75W Tenor OTL it was with Audio Physic Medea speakers. Not the best match spec-wise, but clear and ... liquid.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Okay, thanks for that. I can only comment on what I've heard. The first time I heard the 75W Tenor OTL it was with Audio Physic Medea speakers. Not the best match spec-wise, but clear and ... liquid.

medea are lovely speakers, the bass active version have a friend of mine.
my favorite transistor amps alltime pass aleph 0m, audio research d 400 mkII, avantgarde a1 first version has accu powered. 90 watt at 4 ohms

Newer version
Bandwidth dc - 100Mhz

Avantgarde A1 1000 Highend & Subschassis - shop sfers ag

Avantgarde A1 1000 Highend & Subschassis - HighEnd Verstärker 2 * 90W

hifistereoanlage.ch

 

[tima]

audio research d 400 mkII

A monster in its time!