Natural Sound

[jeff1225]

So @PeterA , 343 pages of rhetoric in , Do you feel that you are any closer to your goal in deifying the teachings of your leader Karmelli with regard to *His* and your vision of “Natural Sound” within this forum ? Which for my part this formula consists of Coloured Lamm electronics … Coloured tonearm unless modified , Coloured pickup cartridges , and in particular Coloured corner horn transducers ? My caviat …. I fully recognise that your system will transcript an efficacious and enjoyable representation of a Matt Munro recording … However “Natural Sound” as you define your goal in producing an audible reproduction , within your room, close to the live event ? I am sorry to say that you are deluding yourself , Particularly where the more exacting symphonic classical recordings are concerned

Wouldn’t you say that every piece of equipment is “colored?” One person’s “transparent” is another person’s “bright.” Personally I believe that it’s personal preference.

For example, I think the choice of the 3012R is a good choice if you’re only going to have one arm because it works well (not great) with every type of cartridge. I prefer my Thomas Schick tone arms for SPU’s, but its only slightly better. I do like the 3012R for high compliance carts like MM’s and my VDH.

 

[Joel27]

So @PeterA , 343 pages of rhetoric in , Do you feel that you are any closer to your goal in deifying the teachings of your leader Karmelli with regard to *His* and your vision of “Natural Sound” within this forum ?

I know this question is not directed at anyone other than Peter but I feel compelled to answer. What ever his intention was; I believe it was just to document his journey; this has been one of my favorite threads to read. I have read it all the way through at least twice.

For me it has allowed me to listen to my system and live music with a new sense of direction. I've gone back and forth with many amazing speakers and have settled on to me what sounds the most like "LIVE MUSIC" it will never be a concert in my room but it gives me the most emotional connection when I listen. This in my opinion was Peter's goal for himself.

If others read this thread and decided to adopt any "teachings" from this I can only assume it does not affect Peter's life one way or the other.

 

[PeterA]

I know this question is not directed at anyone other than Peter but I feel compelled to answer. What ever his intention was; I believe it was just to document his journey; this has been one of my favorite threads to read. I have read it all the way through at least twice.

For me it has allowed me to listen to my system and live music with a new sense of direction. I've gone back and forth with many amazing speakers and have settled on to me what sounds the most like "LIVE MUSIC" it will never be a concert in my room but it gives me the most emotional connection when I listen. This in my opinion was Peter's goal for himself.

If others read this thread and decided to adopt any "teachings" from this I can only assume it does not affect Peter's life one way or the other.

Wonderful sentiment, Joel. I appreciate it. This thread is my attempt to share what I have done in case anyone is interested. It is also a way to document my ideas about audio and to record the evolution of my system. It has been an exercise for me to formulate, anrticulate, and improve my thinking about the hobby and my approach. It’s really for my own education and pleasure. I am pleased that some people enjoy reading it.

 

[Argonaut]

Wouldn’t you say that every piece of equipment is “colored?” One person’s “transparent” is another person’s “bright.” Personally I believe that it’s personal preference.

For example, I think the choice of the 3012R is a good choice if you’re only going to have one arm because it works well (not great) with every type of cartridge. I prefer my Thomas Schick tone arms for SPU’s, but that its only slightly better. I do like the 3012R for high compliance carts like MM’s and my VDH.

Jeff , I concur wholeheartedly with your consideration in regard to the principle of colouration of the purist recorded material with which we all ultimately consume … And yes , there is no such system on the planet that is not coloured /adulterated from the version of the performance that has been transcribed from an original recording ( which is merely a facsimile of the original corporeal event any way ) … However some component parts of any given system in particular the speaker(s) are less accurate and true to the afore mentioned recordings than others and in this case in the main Vitavox CN-191 transducers.

Again I concur with most of your considerations regarding the SME 3012R it is a good tonearm , however its performance can be enhanced imho with the expedient of a couple of fairly simple modifications of which I have written about previously.

With regard to “ One person’s “transparent” is another person’s “bright.” “ that has been debated here in this place at quite some length Jeff … my own position tending toward transparency in a system may not automatically translate to a “bright” presentation of a recording , there are a number of factors that may contribute to such a phenomenon.

To quote the OP of this thread :

I would argue a system that presents the most information as uncorrupted as possible, is the one that is more successful at conveying the emotion of the music.

I would say that such a system would require *Transparancy* to the recording in order to achieve such a goal … Not colouration !

 

[Al M.]

With regard to “ One person’s “transparent” is another person’s “bright.” “ that has been debated here in this place at quite some length Jeff … my own position tending toward transparency in a system may not automatically translate to a “bright” presentation of a recording , there are a number of factors that may contribute to such a phenomenon.

Agreed, I do not associate transparency with brightness, but with a see-through quality to the music. Sure, it is easier to achieve "detail" and a fake transparency with a brighter tonal balance, but I prefer transparency on the basis of a full-bodied tone, with good weight in the low midrange.

 

[Rexp]

Agreed, I do not associate transparency with brightness, but with a see-through quality to the music. Sure, it is easier to achieve "detail" and a fake transparency with a brighter tonal balance, but I prefer transparency on the basis of a full-bodied tone, with good weight in the low midrange.

A transparent system will just tell you what's on the recording, if it has full-bodied tone you will hear it, you can't prefer a particular presentation, that's the opposite of transparency.

 

[Al M.]

A transparent system will just tell you what's on the recording, if it has full-bodied tone you will hear it, you can't prefer a particular presentation, that's the opposite of transparency.

In that sense you are correct. If a recording is thin and bright, it should sound as such, otherwise there is no transparency. I am talking about the base tone of a system, which to my taste should mimic an average tonal balance of unamplified live music. If it is thin and bright, it is not for me.

 

[jeff1225]

Jeff , I concur wholeheartedly with your consideration in regard to the principle of colouration of the purist recorded material with which we all ultimately consume … And yes , there is no such system on the planet that is not coloured /adulterated from the version of the performance that has been transcribed from an original recording ( which is merely a facsimile of the original corporeal event any way ) … However some component parts of any given system in particular the speaker(s) are less accurate and true to the afore mentioned recordings than others and in this case in the main Vitavox CN-191 transducers.

Again I concur with most of your considerations regarding the SME 3012R it is a good tonearm , however its performance can be enhanced imho with the expedient of a couple of fairly simple modifications of which I have written about previously.

With regard to “ One person’s “transparent” is another person’s “bright.” “ that has been debated here in this place at quite some length Jeff … my own position tending toward transparency in a system may not automatically translate to a “bright” presentation of a recording , there are a number of factors that may contribute to such a phenomenon.

To quote the OP of this thread :


I would say that such a system would require *Transparancy* to the recording in order to achieve such a goal … Not colouration !

I accept your argument that transparency and bright being very separate things. My commentary on this was more a study on how audiophiles use adjectives to describe what they hear.

 

[Atmasphere]

However some component parts of any given system in particular the speaker(s) are less accurate and true to the afore mentioned recordings than others and in this case in the main Vitavox CN-191 transducers.

FWIW Dept.:

Inaccuracies in older horn speakers arise mainly from two things: Inexact horn tapers (which causes distortion; in the old days it was calculated on slide rules; today are computer optimized) and breakups in the drivers. The latter bit can cause harshness if in the midrange. The big innovation there has been to use beryllium diaphragms (perhaps with a Kapton surround), which don't have breakups in the audio band.

How well the horn taper is designed is likely only a matter of speculation at this point. Given the ardent following these speakers have (and the basis for its design, the Klipshorn) I expect that the horn taper isn't too far off the mark.

In conclusion as long as an older speaker like this isn't played too loud its likely pretty accurate other than frequency extremes.

 

[PeterA]

FWIW Dept.:

Inaccuracies in older horn speakers arise mainly from two things: Inexact horn tapers (which causes distortion; in the old days it was calculated on slide rules; today are computer optimized) and breakups in the drivers. The latter bit can cause harshness if in the midrange. The big innovation there has been to use beryllium diaphragms (perhaps with a Kapton surround), which don't have breakups in the audio band.

How well the horn taper is designed is likely only a matter of speculation at this point. Given the ardent following these speakers have (and the basis for its design, the Klipshorn) I expect that the horn taper isn't too far off the mark.

In conclusion as long as an older speaker like this isn't played too loud its likely pretty accurate other than frequency extremes.

Vitavox used better drivers than Klipsch.

 

[jeff1225]

Vitavox used better drivers than Klipsch.

Very early model Klipsch Horns used Electro Voice drivers that were/are very good, although the all important midrange compression driver is probably not quite at the level of the Vitavox S2 or JBL 375.

 

[morricab]

Very early model Klipsch Horns used Electro Voice drivers that were/are very good, although the all important midrange compression driver is probably not quite at the level of the Vitavox S2 or JBL 375.

The mid horn is also not the right size for the frequency it’s crossed at…this is where it gets distorted and sounds therefore not relaxed. I had La Scalas and they used the same mid and tweeter horn.

 

[Folsom]

Very early model Klipsch Horns used Electro Voice drivers that were/are very good, although the all important midrange compression driver is probably not quite at the level of the Vitavox S2 or JBL 375.

EV's early stuff did sound very good. It's too bad Klipsch swapped to other stuff otherwise there would be a lot more super good vintage speakers that would be common instead of elusive.

 

[PeterA]

The subject of “natural resolution” came up in another thread. I would like to copy my response here in my system thread.

For me resolution is more than just detail or pixel count. It is all the information from the recording that one hears from his system that enables him to have insight to the performance.

To me adding the qualifier “natural” simply means that the resolution or information is presented in a way that reminds me of the experience of listening to a live performance. Some systems or components make ALL presentations sound the same or like you are up on stage inches or feet from the instrument for example. This is too much detail and not like the experience of live music. The perspective is wrong. Scale, impact, weight, timber, details - they must all be convincing and in the right proportion to each other. To me, that is natural resolution. When it is right, we know it and we go straight to the music and do not “hear” the system. The more natural the information on the recording is presented to us by our systems, the less we consciously analyze what we hear, and the more it becomes about the music.

 

[PeterA]

Further thoughts:

To me, detail is whether or not you hear one of the musicians breathing or a tiny tiny tap on the cymbals that you can hear from some systems, but not others. Expand that and you get nuance. Resolution covers this, but it goes beyond to convey things like proportion and scale and location and tone. If those things aren’t conveyed accurately based on the information embedded on the recording, then I would say the system is not very resolving.

The table top radio or car stereo is not as resolving as our better home systems not because of detail retrieval, but because of the whole experience. The information isn’t conveyed in its entirety. To me that his resolution.

Natural resolution is all about how convincing it is relative to one’s reference of live music. Our system can be resolving, but not sound convincing.

 

[hopkins]

Further thoughts:

To me, detail is whether or not you hear one of the musicians breathing or a tiny tiny tap on the cymbals that you can hear from some systems, but not others. Expand that and you get nuance. Resolution covers this, but it goes beyond to convey things like proportion and scale and location and tone. If those things aren’t conveyed accurately based on the information embedded on the recording, then I would say the system is not very resolving.

The table top radio or car stereo is not as resolving as our better home systems not because of detail retrieval, but because of the whole experience. The information isn’t conveyed in its entirety. To me that his resolution.

Natural resolution is all about how convincing it is relative to one’s reference of live music. Our system can be resolving, but not sound convincing.

What your prose inspires

 

[PeterA]

 

[jeff1225]

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Fantastic! Tell us more!

 

[morricab]

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Looks like the monster truck of cartridges…

 

[PeterA]

Fantastic! Tell us more!

Hello Jeff, it is still early days as I just installed the cartridge over the weekend. I can say it sounds very promising as it seems to combine the best qualities of my other two cartridges, the sense of mass and weight of the vintage Ortofon, and the resolution of the Colibrí.