Ron’s New System

[jbrrp1]

Thanks Ralph, but the question I was alluding to…
Is what made jbrrp1 believe the bolded part.


Or maybe… are you are saying that ^that^ is true because SETs do not have feedback, so they cannot have the “harmonic bifurcation”?

I missed your query earlier. Ralph's information is pretty interesting to me, as it seems a quite plausible mechanism for what I'm hearing. I have only "measured" the reduction in noise and distortion using the most sensitive instruments I have: my ears. Putting the Tripoint system on the chassis grounds of my system makes an unmistakable improvement in engagement and palpable presence in the music, along with revealing a decent amount more of subtle harmonic information, but not "distractingly" so, only musically consonant. Interstitial harmonics are suddenly present that weren't before, and it results in a much truer perception of the instrument or voice, a much more believable sense. I only infer that this is due to the grounding treatment lowering some distortion that caused a "fuzzing over" of this musical information.

A funny aside about the impact of this, a variation on the old canard "even my wife could hear the difference!" My wife is disabled and pretty much just occupies the room directly above my dedicated basement audio den. I have a heavily treated ceiling to minimize acoustic transfer between floors (triple sheetrock layers with Green Glue, suspended by Isomax elastomeric bushings on steel hat channel). It does a really good job of keeping things quiet upstairs, unless I'm enjoying Black Sabbath at punishing levels. Well, I had just inserted the Tripoint stuff into the system and I noticed a cleaner, truer initial transient launch that made drums that much more believable to me. And my wife suddenly started texting me all too regularly to turn things down, because she was hearing the beat too much coming through this ceiling barrier. I would pull out my decibel meter to see where I was at: 78 dB! What the hell! But the transient peak that had been somehow smoothed over was now hitting higher, quicker, and truer to my ear. I believe that is the result of distortion being reduced. Could be because the ground potentials aren't interacting with the audio circuits so much when treated like this, as Ralph states.

 

[Folsom]

As I said, pseudo was not just a poor description, it was an misleading appropriation of a technical expression with a defined meaning. Ron acknowledged and the issue was properly addressed. I suggest you read threads more carefully before jumping in.

You didn't offer anything to address why it can't be pseudo. You just said it sounds like marketing and does not exist, as if Ron was duped by it when from a technical perspective he has a lot of cause to point out the lack of true balanced circuits in equipment.

For anyone wondering true balanced circuits means that for positive and negative phase there is a separate opposite circuit and separate signals paths for each. Think doubling the parts internally whenever you want to make balanced circuits. The double circuit and signal is native to being transmitted over balanced cables that have positive, negative, and ground wire that are in a shield. You can also turn single ended (both positive and negative phase from a single circuit on a single path) into a balanced signal for being used on balanced cables, with transformers. When you convert it then the balanced cables have better attenuation and rejection of certain noise because they're in the envelope of ground along with the appliances.

 

[Holmz]

I missed your query earlier. Ralph's information is pretty interesting to me, as it seems a quite plausible mechanism for what I'm hearing. I have only "measured" the reduction in noise and distortion using the most sensitive instruments I have: my ears. Putting the Tripoint system on the chassis grounds of my system makes an unmistakable improvement in engagement and palpable presence in the music, along with revealing a decent amount more of subtle harmonic information, but not "distractingly" so, only musically consonant. Interstitial harmonics are suddenly present that weren't before, and it results in a much truer perception of the instrument or voice, a much more believable sense. I only infer that this is due to the grounding treatment lowering some distortion that caused a "fuzzing over" of this musical information.

A funny aside about the impact of this, a variation on the old canard "even my wife could hear the difference!" My wife is disabled and pretty much just occupies the room directly above my dedicated basement audio den. I have a heavily treated ceiling to minimize acoustic transfer between floors (triple sheetrock layers with Green Glue, suspended by Isomax elastomeric bushings on steel hat channel). It does a really good job of keeping things quiet upstairs, unless I'm enjoying Black Sabbath at punishing levels. Well, I had just inserted the Tripoint stuff into the system and I noticed a cleaner, truer initial transient launch that made drums that much more believable to me. And my wife suddenly started texting me all too regularly to turn things down, because she was hearing the beat too much coming through this ceiling barrier. I would pull out my decibel meter to see where I was at: 78 dB! What the hell! But the transient peak that had been somehow smoothed over was now hitting higher, quicker, and truer to my ear. I believe that is the result of distortion being reduced. Could be because the ground potentials aren't interacting with the audio circuits so much when treated like this, as Ralph states.

^Sounds good^


But I am still puzzled as to how you gleaned this:

… there's importantly lower distortion, which hits very squarely in the areas you highlight as important. Just an FYI.

Specifically as to how you interpreted that Ron highlighted it as important?

 

[Holmz]

This is very close. Zero feedback circuits do not have a noise floor of nearly so much inharmonic information. It is unavoidable though since intermodulation is a function of the non-linearity of the circuit so noise in the power supply or ground is likely to intermodulate and be part of the noise floor. So right here you can see how important it is to get the power supply right and in particular, get the internal grounding scheme right.
…

Is ^all that^ worth going to a SET for?
Or is a push-pull better?

———
As an aside…

I can see how a zero feedback amp would be heavily influenced by the power supply and ground, but the high feedback amps seem like are influenced “‘not so much”.

I don’t change amps, nearly as often a lot of fellows. I count 5 in the last ~40 years.
The first one was Dean’s “Studio One” (SS) amp, also out of MSP, and that just lost the magic smoke. I suspect you know him and maybe another fellow or two in the city’s.

Then I got some VTLs, and I got another tube amp, as the VTLs seemed like they needed to hit repair shop on a 5-10 schedule.
Very recently yet another SS amp, and a pair of Class-Ds I have not yet tried.

I sort of discount the importance of the powersupply, or been lucking enough in having gear with a better attention to the power supply.
The last 2 preamps have had out-board power supplies, so that may also help.


I suspect that other equipment may be much more positively influenced by external power conditioning.
Do your OTL tubes or Class-D see positives from external power conditioners?

 

[jbrrp1]

^Sounds good^


But I am still puzzled as to how you gleaned this:

Specifically as to how you interpreted that Ron highlighted it as important?

Ron specifically stated "Now if somebody brought over some box and plugged it into the wall or plugged a component into it, and it gobstoppingly allowed me to believe more easily that Stevie Nicks is in the room singing to me, then I would be happy to buy it." That is exactly and significantly what I am hearing with the Tripoint addition, which I attribute to lessening of distortion in the signal chain. I know I find it relevant.

 

[Holmz]

Ron specifically stated "Now if somebody brought over some box and plugged it into the wall or plugged a component into it, and it gobstoppingly allowed me to believe more easily that Stevie Nicks is in the room singing to me, then I would be happy to buy it." That is exactly and significantly what I am hearing with the Tripoint addition, which I attribute to lessening of distortion in the signal chain. I know I find it relevant.

Thanks @jbrrp1 - people also find high harmonic distortion systems to gob smack them as well.
For IMD (etc.) distortion then “the lower the better” seems to a more general rule… at least compared to harmonic distortion.

 

[Atmasphere]

For anyone wondering true balanced circuits means that for positive and negative phase there is a separate opposite circuit and separate signals paths for each. Think doubling the parts internally whenever you want to make balanced circuits. The double circuit and signal is native to being transmitted over balanced cables that have positive, negative, and ground wire that are in a shield.

If the circuit is fully differential then the parts count is not doubled. It might be about 50% more but you get lower noise (up to 6dB) less per stage of gain as opposed to a single-ended circuit using similar parameters (for example a 12AT7 gain stage using a 100K plate load resistor). In addition the differential circuit can reject power supply noise to a much greater degree than can the single-ended circuit.

There are balanced amplifier circuits that are not differential. They actually tend to have more than just double the parts!! They usually rely on an input transformer to obtain the Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR) that they have (the ability to reject that which is not the signal).

Differential amplifiers can have a pretty high CMRR on their own so the transformer is not needed.

WRT to your comment beginning 'The double circuit', its important to understand that in a balanced line driven in a way that is compliant with AES48, the signal on pin 2 (non-inverting in the US) is created with respect to pin 3 rather than ground, and vice versa. If the signal is created with respect to ground, a number of the advantages of balanced operation are lost such as ground loop immunity and immunity to interconnect cable colorations.

Is ^all that^ worth going to a SET for?
Or is a push-pull better?

You can obtain that benefit simply by using zero feedback. Or use a circuit where feedback is properly applied.

I can see how a zero feedback amp would be heavily influenced by the power supply and ground, but the high feedback amps seem like are influenced “‘not so much”.

[snip]

I sort of discount the importance of the powersupply, or been lucking enough in having gear with a better attention to the power supply.
The last 2 preamps have had out-board power supplies, so that may also help.


I suspect that other equipment may be much more positively influenced by external power conditioning.
Do your OTL tubes or Class-D see positives from external power conditioners?

The power supply is important regardless of the amp or preamp. Since class D amps were so efficient, I think a lot of people didn't give the amp a proper power supply and that resulted in a lot of class D amps that sounded pretty bad.

Our OTLs are affected by line Voltage quite a lot owing to the massive filament circuit and no feedback. Our class Ds are almost the opposite since the high feedback allows rejection of that which is not the signal (even correcting phase shift at frequency extremes).

 

[Ron Resnick]

In the last five weeks a dear friend of mine and I have auditioned on Wilson XVX or on Rockport Lyras, mostly in his very familiar system, Burmester 159 monos, Constellation Statement stereo, D'Agostino Relentless monos, Soulution 717 monos, VAC 300 monos, Boulder 3010 preamp, Soulution 727 preamp, D'Agostino preamp, ARC Ref 6 preamp and VAC Reference preamp. The sources were LampizatOr Horizon360 or dCS Varese.

It has been very interesting to take a tour of some state-of-the-art, flagship solid-state components.

 

[HughP3]

In the last five weeks a dear friend of mine and I have auditioned on Wilson XVX or on Rockport Lyras, mostly in his very familiar system, Burmester 159 monos, Constellation Statement stereo, D'Agostino Relentless monos, Soulution 717 monos, VAC 300 monos, Boulder 3010 preamp, Soulution 727 preamp, D'Agostino preamp, ARC Ref 6 preamp and VAC Reference preamp. The sources were LampizatOr Horizon360 or dCS Varese.

It has been very interesting to take a tour of some state-of-the-art, flagship solid-state components.

Thats some serious hardware coming and going. Is this at your friends home? How were the dacs auditioned? Thanks

 

[2fastdriving]

In the last five weeks a dear friend of mine and I have auditioned on Wilson XVX or on Rockport Lyras, mostly in his very familiar system, Burmester 159 monos, Constellation Statement stereo, D'Agostino Relentless monos, Soulution 717 monos, VAC 300 monos, Boulder 3010 preamp, Soulution 727 preamp, D'Agostino preamp, ARC Ref 6 preamp and VAC Reference preamp. The sources were LampizatOr Horizon360 or dCS Varese.

It has been very interesting to take a tour of some state-of-the-art, flagship solid-state components.

Well now we definitely need the details!

 

[shakti]

In the last five weeks a dear friend of mine and I have auditioned on Wilson XVX or on Rockport Lyras, mostly in his very familiar system, Burmester 159 monos, Constellation Statement stereo, D'Agostino Relentless monos, Soulution 717 monos, VAC 300 monos, Boulder 3010 preamp, Soulution 727 preamp, D'Agostino preamp, ARC Ref 6 preamp and VAC Reference preamp. The sources were LampizatOr Horizon360 or dCS Varese.

It has been very interesting to take a tour of some state-of-the-art, flagship solid-state components.

Looking forward to read more about that serious listening sessions

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In the last five weeks a dear friend of mine and I have auditioned on Wilson XVX or on Rockport Lyras, mostly in his very familiar system, Burmester 159 monos, Constellation Statement stereo, D'Agostino Relentless monos, Soulution 717 monos, VAC 300 monos, Boulder 3010 preamp, Soulution 727 preamp, D'Agostino preamp, ARC Ref 6 preamp and VAC Reference preamp. The sources were LampizatOr Horizon360 or dCS Varese.

It has been very interesting to take a tour of some state-of-the-art, flagship solid-state components.

should this likely extended discussion about these auditions be on this (Ron's New System) thread; was the idea this was research for your system? or your dear friend's system? should we have a new thread about it to keep it relevant to the thread title?

could get interesting.

or was this just two guys out raising hell? but not going anywhere specifically. what is the context of these sessions? grouping all these listening events together = something prompted you to do this.

 

[Kingrex]

Well now we definitely need the details!

You need.tp PM Ron and his friends contact. A good place.to.hear some amps that may work for you.

 

[Kingrex]

. Our class Ds are almost the opposite since the high feedback allows rejection of that which is not the signal (even correcting phase shift at frequency extremes).

If you eliminated the feesback, would your class be more detailed?

 

[sbo6]

should this likely extended discussion about these auditions be on this (Ron's New System) thread; was the idea this was research for your system? or your dear friend's system? should we have a new thread about it to keep it relevant to the thread title?

could get interesting.

or was this just two guys out raising hell? but not going anywhere specifically. what is the context of these sessions? grouping all these listening events together = something prompted you to do this.

Agreed, this seems primarily off topic. Can't have any conversations remotely tangential to the main or the site may implode! ;-)

 

[Atmasphere]

If you eliminated the feesback, would your class be more detailed?

No. Our early prototypes were zero feedback and showed the project was worth pursuing. Distortion has a way of obscuring detail (particularly low level detail) so if you can make the amp lower distortion (regardless of its technology) an immediate improvement will be perception of detail.

Feedback isn't bad unless its inappropriately applied, which is pretty common in audio; on that account its gained an undeserved bad rap.

@Ron Resnick Did you ever get your amp set up with the right capacitor values, of which we previously discussed?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agreed, this seems primarily off topic.

check.

Can't have any conversations remotely tangential to the main or the site may implode! ;-)

i think plenty of side subjects should stay on a system thread, and also they might seem like small issues to begin with but then become major side discussions. that's normal and how it goes sometimes.

but......this case is (1) it's a big broad subject, and (2) obviously a completely separate subject and not in any way connected to 'Ron's New System'. unless Ron tells us different.

 

[microstrip]

check.

i think plenty of side subjects should stay on a system thread, and also they might seem like small issues to begin with but then become major side discussions. that's normal and how it goes sometimes.

but......this case is (1) it's a big broad subject, and (2) obviously a completely separate subject and not in any way connected to 'Ron's New System'. unless Ron tells us different.

IMO side subjects are usually the best content of WBF - as Ron opened the subject in his system thread, anything related to his post can and should be posted.

 

[c1ferrari]

All fair enough, gentlemen. And I agree that Mike put it well.

But I just don't care. My interest in, and patience for, going down rabbit holes and ferreting out problems I don't presently hear is shallower than yours.

Each of us draws our own interest line, and our own cost/benefit line in terms of time and interest and patience. I enjoy comparing loudspeakers and line stages and cartridges and amplifiers. I give Marty infinite credit for having the interest and the patience to compare the sonic differences of cable connectors based on metallurgy. That just ain't me.

Putting it a bit more technically "low noise floor," a popular industry obsession for many manufacturers and many reviewers and many audiophiles, is not one of my sonic cues. So I don't have much interest in spending time or patience or money trying to lower my system's noise floor. If low noise floor were one of my sonic cues I would not use a tube phono stage, a tube line stage, and tube amplifiers with single-ended interconnects.

Now if somebody brought over some box and plugged it into the wall or plugged a component into it, and it gobstoppingly allowed me to believe more easily that Stevie Nicks is in the room singing to me, then I would be happy to buy it. But, absent a problem I actually hear, I'm not going to initiate those kinds of comparisons of grounding boxes and doo-dads on my own. It just doesn't interest me.

Hi Ron,

Which recordings, analog and digital, most closely mimic Stevie Nicks in the room singing to you?

Best,

Sam

 

[c1ferrari]

Music is normally processed in the limbic portions of the brain. If something is wrong there is a tipping point where music processing is transferred to the cerebral cortex, at which point a lot of the emotional impact can be lost. If the designer knows what he's doing, his goal is the keep music processing in the limbic system.

Hi Ralph,

Thank you for the post. It intrigued me sufficiently to conduct a cursory web search with the following result:

Music processing occurs across numerous brain regions, including the auditory cortex in the temporal lobe for pitch, the cerebellum for rhythm and timing, and the hippocampus and amygdala for emotional responses and memory. Various parts of the brain's reward system, like the nucleus accumbens, also activate, while the motor cortex is involved in activities like playing an instrument.

Key Brain Areas Involved in Music Processing

• Auditory Cortex:

Located in the temporal lobe, this region is responsible for processing the fundamental elements of music, such as pitch and melody.

• Cerebellum:

Situated above the brain stem, the cerebellum plays a crucial role in coordinating movement and processing the timing and rhythm of music.

• Limbic System (including the amygdala and hippocampus):

These areas are central to the emotional experience of music, processing feelings and retrieving related memories.

• Reward System (e.g., nucleus accumbens):

This network of brain structures, particularly the nucleus accumbens, is associated with pleasure and reward, explaining why music can evoke feelings of joy.

• Motor Cortex:

When you play an instrument or dance, the motor cortex is activated for movement coordination.

• Visual Cortex:

This area is activated when you read sheet music or watch a dance, engaging your visual system in the musical experience.

Best,

Sam