Natural Sound

[PeterA]

The thing is, you have to document what the correct setting is, which is more than just the thickness of the LP. The cutting angle is also an issue, which is an approximation of 92 degrees since a good mastering engineer will set the actual cutting angle for lowest noise rather than simply 92 degrees.

I agree. What I’m trying to do now is to reduce the compromises. One could never account for every record unless he goes to the trouble of setting up each one and recording the settings. My first attempt is simply to set up two of the same arms and cartridges, one for thick and one for thin records. In the 20 or 30 records, I’ve listened to since I did this, the thick records sound the same because the arm cartridge set up remains the same and the thinner records all sound better. So the net result is positive. Of course it’s not perfect. It is easy though, because my table can accept for arms and one set up, no adjustment is needed. I just write the record weight on the sleeve of the record.

 

[MrC.]

In Brinkmann I only like the balance, not the other models.

I don't have enought exposure to PC. the field coil arm seemed excellent at Mike's, I wasn't impressed with the non-FC arms. I must say all DDs look visually nice to me because of small footprint

That’s too bad. I’ve heard the balance switched back and forth with the bardo playing through the same system and speakers using the same tonearm and similar cartridges by the same manufacturer. I was going to buy the balance but was shocked by the bardo. The sound on the balance was flat and uninvolving. The bardo was lively and toe tapping. Given the similarities of platter material I can only put it down to drive mechanisms. I bought the bardo. I have a td124 and a micro seiki but the bardo is my reference.

 

[djsina2]

I like my arm that has no adjustments, nothing to think about.

 

[Urowolf]

Outside DDK, who else has a world class horn system that has a open door for visitors.
I would love to hear a good horn system again. Its been a while. I think I forgot what one sounds like. As a reference to where my setup is at.

You are welcome to Central Florida for TAD TSM1 experience

 

[Kingrex]

You are welcome to Central Florida for TAD TSM1 experience

I'm in Boynton Beach in July. Are you close?

 

[PeterA]

 

[PeterA]

I just added a third NOS 3012R. Two arms with Ortofon cartridges for thick and thin records. The third arm has a vdH Colibrí.

 

[Joel27]

I just added a third NOS 3012R. Two arms with Ortofon cartridges for thick and thin records. The third arm has a vdH Colibrí.

View attachment 151214

I got to admit I'm jealous of the ability that you have to easily A/B so many different variables. I have multiple arm wands for my VPI but I'm seriously thinking of permanently mounting a second / different style tonearm just for kicks.

 

[PeterA]

I was lucky to find a New Old Stock SME 3012R for sale. The age and colors match my other two arms. There were slight variations with some arm lift housings being black and different sized weights for the bias thread. The tonearm cable is also the same. These too changed over time. It was pretty cool to open the plastic bags and hold an arm that has not been handled since it was packed up at the factory. My guess is that it is from the late 1980s headed to the Japanese market. Everything works beautifully.

 

[Lagonda]

I was lucky to find a New Old Stock SME 3012R for sale. The age and colors match my other two arms. There were slight variations with some arm lift housings being black and different sized weights for the bias thread. The tonearm cable is also the same. These too changed over time. It was pretty cool to open the plastic bags and hold an arm that has not been handled since it was packed up at the factory. My guess is that it is from the late 1980s headed to the Japanese market. Everything works beautifully.

View attachment 151232

Nice find Peter !

 

[PeterA]

Nice find Peter !

Thank you. The weird thing was that it was not even advertised as being NOS, just in excellent condition. I was pleasantly surprised when it arrived.

 

[ajant]

Very incorrect statement. To start with, there are very few full range quality drivers. The only one I have heard is AER BD4 and 5, till 3 is not good enough. You might be comparing lowther. There is Feastrex, but I haven't heard it and very few people have.

With that kind of coherence and sensitivity, swings are amazing, best lows to highs, no need to touch volume on full orchestra. A good system should do dips and highs without touching the volume.

I have a friend who has spent the last 25 years trying to help a friend make 'full range' drivers work (he still is, which seems to have a lot in common with hitting yourself in the head with a hammer; it feels a lot better when you stop). He doesn't seem to get why it sounds congested at higher volumes. At low volumes they sound great and he likes to listen at lower levels and to fairly simple material like a blues guy that is only playing guitar. But if you throw something complex at them the bass causes all of them (he's got a room full of drivers he's tried) to make Doppler Effect distortion which does not sound good. If you prevent the bass getting on the driver the Doppler Effect is vastly reduced and the result is much smoother sound with improved detail. But now there's a crossover, which seems to be against his religion. He's always had subs, but the whole thing only works to a certain volume depending on the material; at some point the Doppler Effect takes over and the system just doesn't sound right.

In addition, if the highs are there you have to have your head in vise to hear them. That is why a rear firing tweeter or the like is handy so if you're slightly off axis at least the tonal balance doesn't suffer so much. Even the 12"units have this problem, even the field coil powered ones do.

I keep telling him that the main driver doesn't have to have a high frequency crossover, just something for the tweeter. Actually if you just bite the bullet and actually use a good tweeter its a lot better if you cross the main driver out so there's no comb filtering (which sounds harsh). So the upshot is you can get the system to sound a lot better if you have a crossover for the woofer and the tweeter. But if you don't play at higher levels (which you might if you're really close to the speaker or the room is small and lively) then they work great.

Joining the party late here, but you said that the guy was trying to avoid using crossovers. That's not my goal, and so I hope that either of you could advise me as follows:

From what I’ve seen of main horn directivity charts, it’s usually some versions of tractrix horns and most of the JMLC horns-such as https://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-350/ -which, beyond a single listener and/or listening position-could cause “head in vise” headaches. Though how that might be much worse than listening to average sized Magnepans or Quad ESLs, I wouldn’t know, as I’ve had no chance to hear any of those nor JMLC speakers. Lynn Olson hired Bjorn Kolbrek to perform the calculations which produced the smaller AH425 horn.
https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

Pierre used it for some years as a two-way, first with Yamaha JA6681b and later with EQed Radian 745neoBe drivers. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140640 Note the off-axis curves and Marco_gea’s reply. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140648

Sadly, I am no kind of diyer, so experimenting on my own is out of the question. Instead, I have to rely Joseph Crowe to finish my speaker build with these cloned midwoofers I sent him https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed , and to either use his horn

ES-450 Biradial No.2143

In this blog post I test the new ES-450 Biradial No.2143. Horn Features 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc) 2" throat diameter 30cm high x 55cm wide (12" x 22") ES horn flare curvature with full wrap-around Rear extension for positioning of super tweeter Rubber ball pocket feet (rear ball can be...

josephcrowe.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415 , which narrows with higher frequencies, but is not as beamy as the AH425 horn likely is.

Or choose one or another constant directivity horn, which you might recommend for a two or three-way design. Please advise if possible. .

 

[Atmasphere]

Joining the party late here, but you said that the guy was trying to avoid using crossovers. That's not my goal, and so I hope that either of you could advise me as follows:

From what I’ve seen of main horn directivity charts, it’s usually some versions of tractrix horns and most of the JMLC horns-such as https://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-350/ -which, beyond a single listener and/or listening position-could cause “head in vise” headaches. Though how that might be much worse than listening to average sized Magnepans or Quad ESLs, I wouldn’t know, as I’ve had no chance to hear any of those nor JMLC speakers. Lynn Olson hired Bjorn Kolbrek to perform the calculations which produced the smaller AH425 horn.
https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

Pierre used it for some years as a two-way, first with Yamaha JA6681b and later with EQed Radian 745neoBe drivers. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140640 Note the off-axis curves and Marco_gea’s reply. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140648

Sadly, I am no kind of diyer, so experimenting on my own is out of the question. Instead, I have to rely Joseph Crowe to finish my speaker build with these cloned midwoofers I sent him https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed , and to either use his horn

ES-450 Biradial No.2143

In this blog post I test the new ES-450 Biradial No.2143. Horn Features 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc) 2" throat diameter 30cm high x 55cm wide (12" x 22") ES horn flare curvature with full wrap-around Rear extension for positioning of super tweeter Rubber ball pocket feet (rear ball can be...

josephcrowe.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415 , which narrows with higher frequencies, but is not as beamy as the AH425 horn likely is.

Or choose one or another constant directivity horn, which you might recommend for a two or three-way design. Please advise if possible. .

Horns with a rectangular mouth have greater controlled directivity. If I were designing a speaker using horns I'd be most like to start with that kind of horn so as to take advantage of that fact.

 

[DaveC]

Joining the party late here, but you said that the guy was trying to avoid using crossovers. That's not my goal, and so I hope that either of you could advise me as follows:

From what I’ve seen of main horn directivity charts, it’s usually some versions of tractrix horns and most of the JMLC horns-such as https://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-350/ -which, beyond a single listener and/or listening position-could cause “head in vise” headaches. Though how that might be much worse than listening to average sized Magnepans or Quad ESLs, I wouldn’t know, as I’ve had no chance to hear any of those nor JMLC speakers. Lynn Olson hired Bjorn Kolbrek to perform the calculations which produced the smaller AH425 horn.
https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

Pierre used it for some years as a two-way, first with Yamaha JA6681b and later with EQed Radian 745neoBe drivers. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140640 Note the off-axis curves and Marco_gea’s reply. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140648

Sadly, I am no kind of diyer, so experimenting on my own is out of the question. Instead, I have to rely Joseph Crowe to finish my speaker build with these cloned midwoofers I sent him https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed , and to either use his horn

ES-450 Biradial No.2143

In this blog post I test the new ES-450 Biradial No.2143. Horn Features 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc) 2" throat diameter 30cm high x 55cm wide (12" x 22") ES horn flare curvature with full wrap-around Rear extension for positioning of super tweeter Rubber ball pocket feet (rear ball can be...

josephcrowe.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415 , which narrows with higher frequencies, but is not as beamy as the AH425 horn likely is.

Or choose one or another constant directivity horn, which you might recommend for a two or three-way design. Please advise if possible. .

I use a 330 Hz LeCleach with 360 rollback, it's the least colored horn and the polar plot is near perfect, no beaming. I use a 4.5" paper cone driver specifically designed for this application up to 12 kHz. It is augmented with a 15" woofer in a large BR cab, and Fostex T500 tweeter. I'm happy with the result, it's like a single driver with full extension, much lower intermodulation distortion and is capable of high SPLs.

LeCleach downside is diameter, but for a wideband midrange horn it works really well. For a 4+ way conventional horn the size may be a larger issue.

 

[morricab]

I use a 330 Hz LeCleach with 360 rollback, it's the least colored horn and the polar plot is near perfect, no beaming. I use a 4.5" paper cone driver specifically designed for this application up to 12 kHz. It is augmented with a 15" woofer in a large BR cab, and Fostex T500 tweeter. I'm happy with the result, it's like a single driver with full extension, much lower intermodulation distortion and is capable of high SPLs.

LeCleach downside is diameter, but for a wideband midrange horn it works really well. For a 4+ way conventional horn the size may be a larger issue.

Good concept…would like to hear them…

 

[bonzo75]

Joining the party late here, but you said that the guy was trying to avoid using crossovers. That's not my goal, and so I hope that either of you could advise me as follows:

From what I’ve seen of main horn directivity charts, it’s usually some versions of tractrix horns and most of the JMLC horns-such as https://horns-diy.pl/horns/jmlc/jmlc-350/ -which, beyond a single listener and/or listening position-could cause “head in vise” headaches. Though how that might be much worse than listening to average sized Magnepans or Quad ESLs, I wouldn’t know, as I’ve had no chance to hear any of those nor JMLC speakers. Lynn Olson hired Bjorn Kolbrek to perform the calculations which produced the smaller AH425 horn.
https://www.azurahorn.com/azurahorn_horns.html

Pierre used it for some years as a two-way, first with Yamaha JA6681b and later with EQed Radian 745neoBe drivers. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140640 Note the off-axis curves and Marco_gea’s reply. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/post-5140648

Sadly, I am no kind of diyer, so experimenting on my own is out of the question. Instead, I have to rely Joseph Crowe to finish my speaker build with these cloned midwoofers I sent him https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed , and to either use his horn

ES-450 Biradial No.2143

In this blog post I test the new ES-450 Biradial No.2143. Horn Features 450Hz cutoff frequency (Fc) 2" throat diameter 30cm high x 55cm wide (12" x 22") ES horn flare curvature with full wrap-around Rear extension for positioning of super tweeter Rubber ball pocket feet (rear ball can be...

josephcrowe.com

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...ot_2023-10-14_170306_480x480.png?v=1697317415 , which narrows with higher frequencies, but is not as beamy as the AH425 horn likely is.

Or choose one or another constant directivity horn, which you might recommend for a two or three-way design. Please advise if possible. .

JMLC is quite excellent and requires a tweeter/upper range driver then there is no head in vice grip. Tractrix is different and usually you will find it in smaller horns which is why it might sound more strained

 

[DasguteOhr]

I use a 330 Hz LeCleach with 360 rollback, it's the least colored horn and the polar plot is near perfect, no beaming. I use a 4.5" paper cone driver specifically designed for this application up to 12 kHz. It is augmented with a 15" woofer in a large BR cab, and Fostex T500 tweeter. I'm happy with the result, it's like a single driver with full extension, much lower intermodulation distortion and is capable of high SPLs.

LeCleach downside is diameter, but for a wideband midrange horn it works really well. For a 4+ way conventional horn the size may be a larger issue.

Good choice, martion does it simlar with 1.5"driver from 350hz-20khz in einhorn speaker sounds really good
who wants to build such a speaker here

Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horns - <!--symbols[13,10,]--><!--symbols[13,10,]--><!--symbols[13,10,]-->Products

P.S
someone was faster...sorry
2"

Speaker World - Celestion

Speaker World tips and technical info

celestion.com

 

[ajant]

JMLC is quite excellent and requires a tweeter/upper range driver then there is no head in vice grip.

Yes, I suspect that's otherwise the reason why I see quite a few AH425 horns for sale.

I use a 330 Hz LeCleach with 360 rollback, it's the least colored horn and the polar plot is near perfect, no beaming. I use a 4.5" paper cone driver specifically designed for this application up to 12 kHz. It is augmented with a 15" woofer in a large BR cab, and Fostex T500 tweeter. I'm happy with the result, it's like a single driver with full extension, much lower intermodulation distortion and is capable of high SPLs.

LeCleach downside is diameter, but for a wideband midrange horn it works really well. For a 4+ way conventional horn the size may be a larger issue.

Unfortunately, I think my pair of undrilled AH425 horns are too small to work with a large format midrange. If I was going the use those horns I thought of a pair of Yamaha JA6681B I have. I've never heard them but Gary Dahl enjoys them.

compression driver impedance question

Done here my blog about it Audio by Martin will have to listen to them, just measured so far. Been busy this weekend. Thank you. :) the spl gain of the waveguide at 3khz is about 9db!!! the gain is still about ~3db at 10khz loading fall like a rock after ~14khz and EQ must be used to...

www.diyaudio.com

Any experience with these Yamaha drivers? https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/yamaha-ja6681b-compression-driver

Note that Gary tried wedding his Raal Lazy ribbon tweeters with the AH425/JA6681B combo, but never found it satisfactory. You can see one perched on the Altec 416-8B cabinet. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/img_3796-jpeg.1193321/

May I ask if your room might be ~ what percentage bigger than mine? Please see attached sketch.



About the Fostex T500 MKIII, might you have it compared to other models, like the T90, T900 or T925?

Do you use the T500 in any kind of a waveguide, like Troy Crowe designed for a few of these tweeters?

Horn Lens No.2474 for Fostex T90A

Introduction Horn lens No.2474 is an assembly designed to replace the existing front half of the Fostex T90A tweeter. The horn lens alters the horn flare geometry to alter the sound quality. Sound Character Changes The 2474 lens improves soundstage depth at the expense of soundstage width...

josephcrowe.com

Lens No.1896 for Fostex T96A

Lens No.1896 is a special horn lens that replaces the front half of the Fostex T96A bullet style super tweeter. The existing screws are used to secure the new horn lens making assembly straightforward and quick. The new horn lens uses the ES horn flare curvature to improve on-axis frequency...

josephcrowe.com

Fostex T900A with Horn Lens No.2258

In this blog post I test a newly developed horn lens for the Fostex T900A super tweeter. I purchased these tweeters with the goal of improving the sound quality by replacing the existing front horn lens with my own design which uses my ES horn flare curvature. Considerable effort was placed on...

josephcrowe.com

3D CAD File for Horn No.1242 ES Horn for Fostex T925A

By purchasing these plans you will automatically receive via email the 3D CAD files in STL, .iges, and .step format. This allow the DIY enthusiast to either 3D print or CNC machine the horn. These files can be imported into your CAM software to allow for programming of your 3D printer or CNC...

josephcrowe.com

How exactly did you implement the T500 tweeter for proper placement? Here's the "tweeter stand" that John Sheerin uses.

https://www.jhsaudio.com/images/170219_4wayJBLsystem/150104_4wayMonoSys.jpg

 

[Kingrex]

Do you all have any issue with the tweeter being off to the side of the midrange. How far back do you have to sit to get the 2 to integrate. And is the position on top/bottom or to the side important?

 

[PeterA]

I was away on vacation and came back to find my system thread turning into a discussion of how best to design and build horn speakers. I appreciate that as you are all likely in pursuit of natural sound, but I wonder if you might find a more robust discussion if you start a new thread in the DIY section for horn speakers.