How Much Bass is Enough

[ssfas]

Can bass in a stereo system sound natural if it doesn't reproduce the weight and impact of what you hear in the concert hall?

For me both quality and quantity matter.

Depends on the concert hall. Depends on the music.

Our last "concert" was on Saturday night, Sadlers Wells East was turned into a nightclub with two great DJs (Call Super and Gai Behar) and etween 1,000 people strutting their stuff on the dance floor, there was a Sharon Eyal show in the middle of it. So plenty of bass going through your body.

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7493976785869098262

Tonight is Handel's opera Semele at Covent Garden, which stretches down to a bassoon and string continuo, perhaps bass viol or cello, which is basically no bass at all.

Of course there are gigs whether the idea is to have a physically out of body experience. Radiohead is like that, although their recordings are far more intimate.

The whole concept of reproducing the bass of a performance, if it has any relevance at all, requires context. For Handel there's no issue at all. On the other hand, bands like Radiohead and Massive Attack, and others like Hofesh Schechter (the most impactful I've ever heard), the recordings don't replicate the live shows because their production teams are surely well aware that it is impossible to replicate the live sound from a stereo.

 

[PeterA]

Can bass in a stereo system sound natural if it doesn't reproduce the weight and impact of what you hear in the concert hall?

For me both quality and quantity matter.

Of course not Ron. Weight and impact are part of what makes bass sound natural. This is what I mean by quality. The quality has to sound convincing. It can’t be too little or too much. That is quantity.

Jim Smith tried to integrate a pair of subwoofers in my old Magico system. He got it to a point after a day where he said that it sounds OK, but there are trade-offs. He did not use the word natural, but we both agreed it sounded better without the subwoofers, just not as extended, and he could not get them to disappear.

I have two friends who tried to integrate subwoofers into their system. One gave up and preferred the system without, and these were tall Magico speakers. I don’t know how low they went, but there were two big woofers like 13 inches. The system sounded more natural without the subwoofer.

My other friend has subwoofers and every time I visit I think it sounds better without them. He uses them and adds tube traps to deal with the excessive bass. The other night he and I removed the tube traps turned off the subwoofers, and it sounded better, more natural with the right amount of weight and impact and articulation. The bass quality was simply superior to my ears. But he continues to return to the subwoofers, particularly for some types of music.

The guy who’s driving around in the souped up Honda Civic blasting music from his tiny car, annoying everyone at the stoplight, he prioritizes based quantity, not quality. When I had my old Magico Minis, I prioritized base quality over quantity. Of course, there was a little bit missing in terms of extension and weight so eventually, I switched to floorstanding speakers.

Now I have corner loaded, horn bass that sounds more natural than my previous systems in my room. I’ve also heard a few systems that have very well integrated subwoofers. If done right it improves the listening experience by sounding even more natural. I agree with those that much depends on the speakers and the room.

 

[Kingrex]

Precisely, the higher the Qts, the less sound pressure loss at the driver's resonance frequency (FS). Unfortunately, the Trio's baffle is too narrow to prevent acoustic short circuits. View attachment 154494


The Dartzeel amp only has a damping factor of 20-30.
A U frame baffle add 6db in bass easy

How wide should the baffle be, or how deep the U. For my PAP?
A lot of people think the Trio 15 have plenty of bass. Some people with PAP prefer a 250 watt plus pass amp to drive them. Lots of SS power.

My perception was the Dartzeel and Atmasphere had a fuller, more rounded bass than my KT88 PP amp. They both reached the same overall depth of bass. About 50db and then rolled off hard.
The KT88 has a much more natural bass. And the KT88 is much faster bass. The leading edges and punch are more tights and fast. Like I said earlier, with the horn sub, the bass actually made me jump. I don't have the Dartzeel to test anymore, but I doubt it would do the same.

And it is sort of shocking how the overall power seems so much higher. All the way top to bottom of the frequency range. However, I don't think I would get Club style bass. That real deep, shake the room bass. That is a different type of bass. I did play some pop music with deep bass. What I did notice was interesting details in the bass that I never heard before. Like I could hear the synthesizer settings and more subtle affects they had programmed into it. I think a SS amp would give me more Club style bass. But a different speaker would also move the needle that way too. I am happy with the type and quantity of bass I am getting now.

 

[DasguteOhr]

How wide should the baffle be, or how deep the U. For my PAP?
A lot of people think the Trio 15 have plenty of bass. Some people with PAP prefer a 250 watt plus pass amp to drive them. Lots of SS power.

My perception was the Dartzeel and Atmasphere had a fuller, more rounded bass than my KT88 PP amp. They both reached the same overall depth of bass. About 50db and then rolled off hard.
The KT88 has a much more natural bass. And the KT88 is much faster bass. The leading edges and punch are more tights and fast. Like I said earlier, with the horn sub, the bass actually made me jump. I don't have the Dartzeel to test anymore, but I doubt it would do the same.

And it is sort of shocking how the overall power seems so much higher. All the way top to bottom of the frequency range. However, I don't think I would get Club style bass. That real deep, shake the room bass. That is a different type of bass. I did play some pop music with deep bass. What I did notice was interesting details in the bass that I never heard before. Like I could hear the synthesizer settings and more subtle affects they had programmed into it. I think a SS amp would give me more Club style bass. But a different speaker would also move the needle that way too. I am happy with the type and quantity of bass I am getting now.

Just try 30cm side baffles. Get some cabinet hinges and temporarily attach them to the frame with screw clamps. You can lengthen or shorten the baffle width with different angles. Asymmetrical angles smooth the frequency response.
Exsample

Place the speakers at least 0.8-1.0m from the rear wall at position works a dipole mostly really good.
I guarantee you won't need a subwoofer anymore, especially not one of those kid-sized things with a 10" bass driver. Bass is all about air displacement, and 15" speakers can do that much better.
My openbaffle with calculated side wings flat down to 30hz.

 

[Kingrex]

Just try 30cm side baffles. Get some cabinet hinges and temporarily attach them to the frame with screw clamps. You can lengthen or shorten the baffle width with different angles. Asymmetrical angles smooth the frequency response.
Exsample

Place the speakers at least 0.8-1.0m from the rear wall at position works a dipole mostly really good.
I guarantee you won't need a subwoofer anymore, especially not one of those kid-sized things with a 10" bass driver. Bass is all about air displacement, and 15" speakers can do that much better.
My openbaffle with calculated side wings flat down to 30hz.

Kid size? My sub is pretty large. Physically. Its a 19.5 x 19.5 mouth. That 10 inch driver in a horn, using the wall as part of the horn is displacing a massive amount of air.

I am told a small driver is easier to drive. I am using 250 watts class D. I have very clean, articulate bass.

I am told, you need a welder to make good bass with a 15 inch driver. I am not looking to go that direction.

At some time I will try the sides. Never hurts to experiment.
Thanks

I might give the wings a try

 

[bonzo75]

Can bass in a stereo system sound natural if it doesn't reproduce the weight and impact of what you hear in the concert hall?

For me both quality and quantity matter.

Yes, nothing sounds like actual live it is always an extrapolation. Size, frequency, tone. Otherwise everyone would simply get as many drivers as possible and use a digital crossover and stream music to all frequencies.

You could then have as much discontinuity and breaks as you want as long as frequency extension is met.

 

[sbo6]

Congrats on your sub journey and DIY sub.

I've been experimenting and implementing subs for many years via many brands. I had JLA Fathoms for years, excellent subs, clean, tight bass that I preferred to REL and many others. As of recent, I purchased Perlisten reference line D215S subs which is at another lev of realism - noticeably cleaner (lower distortion), tighter bass with impact when the music calls for it. It actually cleaned up the mid - bass and midrange. A further improvement is integrating subs as part of your mains, in my case taking the mains from a 4 - way to a 5 - way via an active XO. With the mains and subs no longer overlapping in frequency there is a noticeable lack of tension and further clarity. I had tried this years ago via 1 first order (cap in series with preamp output), but the results were not as beneficial likely due to the first order 6DB/ octave limitations. YMMV.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Kid size? My sub is pretty large. Physically. Its a 19.5 x 19.5 mouth. That 10 inch driver in a horn, using the wall as part of the horn is displacing a massive amount of air.

I had in my last appartment two corner horns stacked per side, for me ist that kid size

Audio Technik GmbH

Audio Technik GmbH, Herstellung und Vertrieb von Lautsprechern

www.lowther.de

In my nnew home i have no two equal corners ..sad 104db/ 1watt flat down to 22hz

I am told a small driver is easier to drive. I am using 250 watts class D. I have very clean, articulate bass.

I am told, you need a welder to make good bass with a 15 inch driver. I am not looking to go that direction.

At some time I will try the sides. Never hurts to experiment.
Thanks

I might give the wings a try

I gave you the tip to use a Yamaha studio amp with subwoofer xover to activate the bass.
Try the side wings...

 

[Kingrex]

Congrats on your sub journey and DIY sub.

I've been experimenting and implementing subs for many years via many brands. I had JLA Fathoms for years, excellent subs, clean, tight bass that I preferred to REL and many others. As of recent, I purchased Perlisten reference line D215S subs which is at another lev of realism - noticeably cleaner (lower distortion), tighter bass with impact when the music calls for it. It actually cleaned up the mid - bass and midrange. A further improvement is integrating subs as part of your mains, in my case taking the mains from a 4 - way to a 5 - way via an active XO. With the mains and subs no longer overlapping in frequency there is a noticeable lack of tension and further clarity. I had tried this years ago via 1 first order (cap in series with preamp output), but the results were not as beneficial likely due to the first order 6DB/ octave limitations. YMMV.

Van Zyl Audio

The full dynamic potential of music as it was originally recorded

vanzylaudio.com

My sub is not DIY. There is 21 years of testing going into the design of this sub. The maker has deep experience with software as well as CNC machining to make very accurate adjustments of the finished enclosure to test the product at each design phase.

 

[Kingrex]

I had in my last appartment two corner horns stacked per side, for me ist that kid size

Audio Technik GmbH

Audio Technik GmbH, Herstellung und Vertrieb von Lautsprechern

www.lowther.de

In my nnew home i have no two equal corners ..sad 104db/ 1watt flat down to 22hz

I gave you the tip to use a Yamaha studio amp with subwoofer xover to activate the bass.
Try the side wings...

Looks like Peters cabinet, without the midrange on top. I bet it worked fantastic.

I looked for a yamaha amp for a long time. I never moved forward as I could never find what I thought was a good cabinet design for a Dayton driver. And I never had the time to set up my woodshop to make a cabinet.

The BB10 sub comes with a Dayton SPA250DSP amp and crossover. It is not attached to the cabinet. It sits loose in the room. Currently with a long speaker cable to allow adjustments from the seated position. I actually like it so much I may get a second BB10 subwoofer. But even the manufacturer says its not necessary. He told me to keep dialing what I have. He may come to WA and fine tune it when I have time for him. I sort of want to rip the carpet out of the room first and get the cork floor installed. That is going to change the way the room plays.

He also makes a 12 inch horn sub. That is quite large. More than I want in my space. When I am done with the room, it will be a video media system on one end and a 2 channel audio on the other.

 

[morricab]

Van Zyl Audio

The full dynamic potential of music as it was originally recorded

vanzylaudio.com

My sub is not DIY. There is 21 years of testing going into the design of this sub. The maker has deep experience with software as well as CNC machining to make very accurate adjustments of the finished enclosure to test the product at each design phase.

Another cool option

Decware's WICKED ONE Subwoofer Cabinet Plans

Official Home Page for the Famous Wicked One Sub

www.decware.com

 

[hopkins]

This discussion about bass should be merged with the « Is high end audio worth it?” topic.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Van Zyl Audio

The full dynamic potential of music as it was originally recorded

vanzylaudio.com

My sub is not DIY. There is 21 years of testing going into the design of this sub. The maker has deep experience with software as well as CNC machining to make very accurate adjustments of the finished enclosure to test the product at each design phase.

There's no question that the sub sounds good, but the money could have been used for something else, like a passive crossover. I would only use the 12dB filter on the tweeter; the rest of the coax driver would run without the crossover. Perhaps you would have to lower the tweeter level (resistor lpad). Here's the frequency response of the Beyma 10" coax. Really good rolloff 10" midbass driver.

Run it with your tube amplifier. Both bass drivers are active with the Yamaha studio power amplifier, 12dB filter/90Hz.
I guarantee it will be better ...promise

 

[Kingrex]

There's no question that the sub sounds good, but the money could have been used for something else, like a passive crossover. I would only use the 12dB filter on the tweeter; the rest of the coax driver would run without the crossover. Perhaps you would have to lower the tweeter level (resistor lpad). Here's the frequency response of the Beyma 10" coax. Really good rolloff 10" midbass driver.View attachment 154525

Run it with your tube amplifier. Both bass drivers are active with the Yamaha studio power amplifier, 12dB filter/90Hz.View attachment 154524
I guarantee it will be better ...promise

What model Yamaha was that?

Are you saying place a cap and resistor in line with the tweeter and run the 10"full range? What cap would you use? Can you sketch a quick diagram?

I'm a little worried as everyone says biamping never works.

Another option I was looking into was an inductor ot cap on the bottom to shut the main speaker from playing below 80 hertz. Take the preasure off the tube amp. But again, I don't know what to change to cut the low frequency.

 

[DasguteOhr]

What model Yamaha was that?

Yamaha p3500s with 12db xover adjustable from 50hz-150hz

Are you saying place a cap and resistor in line with the tweeter and run the 10"full range? What cap would you use? Can you sketch a quick diagram?

I'm a little worried as everyone says biamping never works.

Its not biamping its active bass..is diffrent league

Another option I was looking into was an inductor ot cap on the bottom to shut the main speaker from playing below 80 hertz. Take the preasure off the tube amp. But again, I don't know what to change to cut the low frequency.

Is that your xover , a lot models of this speaker with different driver?
P.S make good photo of that, in internet not good available

 

[TooCool4]

I'm a little worried as everyone says biamping never works.

Bi-amping is amazing, bi-wiring is a complete waste of time and money. I have tried both and learned the hard way, as far as I am concerned bi-wiring is a way for you to waste money on extra cabling you don’t need.

Personally I stay away from subs, if my main speakers can't do it I am not interested. For me subwoofers are only needed for films.

 

[morricab]

What model Yamaha was that?

Are you saying place a cap and resistor in line with the tweeter and run the 10"full range? What cap would you use? Can you sketch a quick diagram?

I'm a little worried as everyone says biamping never works.

Another option I was looking into was an inductor ot cap on the bottom to shut the main speaker from playing below 80 hertz. Take the preasure off the tube amp. But again, I don't know what to change to cut the low frequency.

Biamping works if all amps are of the same type. Mixing topologies often leads to sonic mismatch.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I found a better photo here.
I have marked the cables where they go is that correct?


You don't need to worry; if you don't like it, you can dismantle it in 15 minutes. But I already know the answer.

 

[PeterA]

Biamping works if all amps are of the same type. Mixing topologies often leads to sonic mismatch.

Some argue they have to be the exact same amplifier model. One reason I bought a spare pair of ML2.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Biamping works if all amps are of the same type. Mixing topologies often leads to sonic mismatch.

On how many speakers have you activated the bass (no passive crossover)? Direct grip from the amp. This only works well below 100 Hz. A 10" coax is ideal for full-range use with a tube amp because it acts like a point source. The Beyma 10"+ horntweeter operates from 80 Hz to 20 kHz in the baffle. You don't even need a notch filter for the highs; very good rolloff above 4 kHz. It's a mortal sin to add a 24 dB filter. I'm not here to convert people; if Kingrex interested, then he can contact me (PM).