Problems with believability in audio

Don’t disagree, but I have yet to hear a truly convincing multi channel system and have heard at least some truly amazing two channel systems.
Multi-channel and stereo (or mono) are completely different experiences, it does not really make sense to compare them - though of course you can, and you can prefer one to the other (or simply enjoy both), but that does not mean one is superior to the other. Those who desperately claim that multi-channel is superior because it is more "accurate" are probably not sensitive to the same things as those who claim the opposite. It's another pointless debate, like digital vs analog .
 
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Multi-channel and stereo (or mono) are completely different experiences, it does not really make sense to compare them - though of course you can, and you can prefer one to the other (or simply enjoy both), but that does not mean one is superior to the other. Those who desperately claim that multi-channel is superior because it is more "accurate" are probably not sensitive to the same things as those who claim the opposite. It's another pointless debate, like digital vs analog .
Agreed. OTOH, what you are doing is no more or less questionable than the "processing" that others impute to discrete multichannel.
 
Agreed. OTOH, what you are doing is no more or less questionable than the "processing" that others impute to discrete multichannel.
Sorry, I was not sure I understood your comment. If you mean that every approach has its flaws - absolutely. Personally, I can't consider a multi-channel setup in my living room, but a quality desktop solution would be appealling. I'm not sure that exists.
 
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The voices, the voices.

I once heard a four channel system at RMAF 2010. I think they were for channel from Cardas. Four pass labs mono blocks with Vfet made for Sony and Sony speakers in a large room. The recording was of a male singing group. The presentation was extremely convincing. There was an incredible sense of the singers in front of us while we sat in a stone cathedral.
 
I'm only vaguely familiar with multi-channel reproduction. Is the sense of being in a context, dimensionality, in the presence of, or however the multi-channel virtues are described, are those as important, more important or less important than the music itself? What are one's rationale or desire for multi-channel reproduction?
 
Attempting to defeat the 'religion' of two channel is tilting at audiophile windmills. I wrote a monograph about ambience because the topic comes up on occasion and I got tired of repeating the spiel. I don't remember where the monograph is any more anyway, and if somebody is curious about MC they should read up more on psychoacoustics on their own time and their own dime, I no longer waste my time.
 
The voices, the voices.

I once heard a four channel system at RMAF 2010. I think they were for channel from Cardas. Four pass labs mono blocks with Vfet made for Sony and Sony speakers in a large room. The recording was of a male singing group. The presentation was extremely convincing. There was an incredible sense of the singers in front of us while we sat in a stone cathedral.
Peter McGrath gave me a demonstration of his own multichannel recordings when he was working for Cello in Ft. Lauderdale. He was using the biggest Cello system with a PacificMicrosonic ad/da converter. Classical music, but still pretty convincing. :)
 
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I'm only vaguely familiar with multi-channel reproduction. Is the sense of being in a context, dimensionality, in the presence of, or however the multi-channel virtues are described, are those as important, more important or less important than the music itself? What are one's rationale or desire for multi-channel reproduction?

I can’t really generalize or answer your question Tim. My experience is very limited. But of all the demonstrations I’ve heard at Audio shows over the years, this one stood out as being spooky real sounding. I felt like I was in the presence of those singers in the cathedral. I was sitting in the cathedral. I just could not see them in front of me but I felt their presence. I don’t know if it was these very special Pass labs amplifiers and the new Sony wood cabinet speakers in combination with the source component and the set up in the room, or the recording itself and the multi channel presentation. What I can say is that the combination of all of it is memorable to this day.
 
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Peter McGrath gave me a demonstration of his own multichannel recordings when he was working for Cello in Ft. Lauderdale. He was using the biggest Cello system with a PacificMicrosonic ad/da converter. Classical music, but still pretty convincing. :)
And with classical music no less…will wonders never cease?? Must have been torture for you I guess… ;)
 
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And with classical music no less…will wonders never cease?? Must have been torture for you I guess… ;)

Maybe he is a closeted multichannel classical guy
 
There is a new think piece in "The Absolute Sound" that discusses what the author views as the 6 major problems in getting what he refers to as "believable" audio.


This reminds somewhat of the old TAS where Harry Pearson would muse upon what made audio sound more realistic. What this article does is lays out the issues, what it doesn't do is attempt to address them with solutions.

This allows us members of WBF to debate these topics without any preconception from the author...other than we may not agree that all of these points are problems with believability in audio or that some that are important are missing.

The author starts with a statement about what audio is for, listing three points: 1) Enjoyment of music, 2) A quest for a system that makes believable music and 3) Appreciation of Progress

Of these three stated objectives for audio, I resonate strongly with the first two, meaning the enjoyment of music and a quest for a believable system are definitely reasons I am in the hobby. The third point to me is interesting but increasingly as I have personally journeyed in audio I find that there is not so much actual progress towards believability in reproduction (perhaps even some regressions in that regard) as there has been in a purely technical grounds. Yes, we have more advanced electronics, materials, circuits speaker designs etc. ...but how do they relate to the goal of audio believability? I was once believing that more advanced circuits, parts, materials and designs...all driven to reduce measurable distortions of various types, would lead to the greatest believability in audio reproduction.

The problem, as the author points out, is that this hasn't really been the case. I would argue that in some really key areas (some of his 6 problems below) audio had actually regressed compared to the best historical systems.

One interesting point made by the author is that without a reference the pursuit of the points above basically have no direction and what I see is people pursuing enjoyment and a quest without a reference. What ends up happening then is the endless pursuit of different and endless gear swapping.

The 6 points are as follows:

1) The problem of visual images
2) The problem of recording standards
3) The problem of spatial imaging
4) The problem of bass in real rooms
5) The problem of dynamics
6) The problem of digital distortions


He states that the first two are basically out of our control although I guess you could beam videos of concerts in your living room to kind of address point 1. Point 2, you just have to be selective of good recordings, which is generally reached by a consensus of aficionados. It is clear that poor and even decent recordings do quite a bit of damage to believability.

Problem 3, the problem of spatial imaging to me is probably more problematic than most would like to admit. Without knowing what the real event sounded like (or if in fact there was a real soundstage and not just manufactured in the studio) I think it is less critical that it is accurate than if it just seems palpable and believable (like the sax player or vibe player is there in the room with you in 3d ). Where most systems struggle here is in terms of image density and 3 dimensionality. Do they have volume like real musicians in a room would have? Most systems paint a rather flat caricature of this, even if they place them well in a deep/wide soundstage. After just coming back from Munich, most systems, regardless of cost, fail to convince that the images are living, breathing musicians.

Problem 4, the problem of bass in a real rooms is maybe less of a barrier to believable sound because real instruments in that same room (at least bass instruments) SHOULD have similar problems if they are located approximately where the speakers would be located in that room. Of course you can't fit large ensembles in a small room nor would you want a rock band in your room, which would like sound pretty bad.

Problem 5, The problem of dynamics is also what I consider to be one of the biggest problems with believability. Most systems are woefully underrepresenting dynamics and it is one of major reasons for the renaissance of horn speakers...which were virtually dead 30 years ago. You can hear most non-horn speakers compressing even if you don't really realize it...mostly because that is just what you are used to. Real dynamics are purely the domain of high sensitivity speakers because of the physics behind thermal and dynamic compression. Speakers of mid-80dB sensitivity are already compressing significantly from moderate volume levels. This then doesn't allow for the natural dynamic envelope to be expressed. Some very large dynamic and panel speakers do this kind of OK (the Sigma MAAT is a good example) because they have somewhat high sensitivity due to large radiating surfaces. Speakers under about 95dB sensitivity will never achieve the same dynamic expression of their more sensitive brethren, IMO.


Problem 6, The problem with digital distortions. This is a difficult one as most people these days are primarily digital. That said, again in Munich it was often with a sense of relief when a room would switch from digital to analog. I know this will draw fire, but the ubiquitous use of WADAX players was for me a digital catastrophe. I remember many years ago going around the Munich show and taking note of the gear in the rooms that sounded good to me. One year I noted that the Audio Aero La source was a common feature in the rooms that sounded good. This player and the La Fountaine were very musical and seemingly pretty low in the kinds of digital distortions that interfere with believability. I noticed a similar analog trend a few years ago, when several rooms had adopted the Kronos Pro turntable....those rooms tended to sound very musical compared to other rooms also running analog. What I have noticed with WADAX is that room after room sounds "synthetic" or as my wife put it "electronic" sounding. There is something missing in the dynamics and a sheen to the sound. I don't care how great they measure (if they in fact measure that great) what I hear from them doesn't sound believable. Ultimately, I have stayed with classic R2R chip based DACs (BB PCM 63 and 1704, AD 1865 etc.) and tube output stages because, although clearly worse measuring, they simply sound more believable to me based on what I hear with live, unamplified music. It doesn't matter if they are SLIGHTLY lower resolution or don't have as much air...they simply sound more real to me...in the way that good analog sounds more real.

What are your thoughts? Would like to have some other's thoughtful feedback...

Thanks for drawing my attention to this Absolute Sound article. It is a worthy and thought-provoking attempt to describe and analyse our understanding of hifi in a systematic way.

The article starts by stating what we are trying to accomplish in terms of musical enjoyment, our quest and appreciation of progress. This is a clear mission statement for audiophilia.

It acknowledges the massive endeavour to reduce distortion in the audio chain from source to loudspeaker. However, it points out that this is not the whole story. There is merit in this. We can upgrade equipment because it was clear from comparison that there is some improvement. Yet soon after, this improved sound becomes the new norm. I often wonder if it has truly increased musical enjoyment. Sometimes, the satisfaction we take from making progress is short lived. It's only when we reverse the change that its effect becomes apparent again. The chief executive of a UK hifi manufacturer said recently that this is the reason why his company is still in business after several decades.

Then the article introduces the concept of believability. This appears to be defined as the ability of an audio system to convincingly recreate the sound of live acoustic music. I would contend that this is not the true function of an audio system. Surely the true function of an audio system is to faithfully render what the producer has put on the record, CD or whatever. This is a work of art in its own right quite independent of the composition and live performance of music. Art Garfunkel has said that he and his collaborators were not so much writers and performers as makers of records. I concede that lovers of classical music may disagree with me here. Nevertheless, I would point out that it is rare if not unknown for recordings to be entirely free of electronic processing. How can we second guess what the record producer intended? Like the author, he is dead.

Despite this shortcoming, the article goes on to correctly identify four critical issues pertinent to hifi systems. Here it is back on firmer ground. These issues are far from ignored by manufacturers. Several recent initiatives come to mind. For example, the remarkable imaging capabilities of Linn’s 360 loudspeakers.

Overall, the article hints at a taxonomy of the problems facing audiophilia. I'd like to see a future article set this out more explicitly. The false dichotomy made between believability and accuracy risks confusing the overall picture. Perhaps I am being overly critical of the article. It does a great job within the limitations of a concise journalistic piece.
 
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Then the article introduces the concept of believability. This appears to be defined as the ability of an audio system to convincingly recreate the sound of live acoustic music. I would contend that this is not the true function of an audio system. Surely the true function of an audio system is to faithfully render what the producer has put on the record, CD or whatever.

I don't find that 'believability' is either of those definitions or claims as you state them.

Rendering what the producer put on a recording is an interesting concept that that can be put on a list of possible "true functions of an audio system"; but it remains just a concept. I speculate that what you means is not rendering a producer's intent but is a reference to what is on the media itself. I question how we can know what that is by way of playing the recording. Likely we get different playback results from each different playback system. How can we know that one result is the 'correct result' according your notion of faithful rendering.

Wrt believability as recreation of the sound of live acoustic music, this gets kinda close, but is not quite there, imo. I think there is a recognition of a distinction between live and reproduction that is immediately perceivable. Stereos don't sound live and live acoustic music does not sound like a stereo.

I use the term 'believable' as similar to the terms 'realistic' or 'natural sound'. At best I find the goal to be reproduced music that is evocative of live acoustic music. That is not any specific or singular performance.

Those of us with enough live acoustic music exposure build over time a model or template in our heads of that sound, the sound of music in acoustic space played by actual performers. That includes the sound of individual instruments and instruments in combination within acoustic space. If what we hear from a stereo is sufficiently congurent with our empirically derived template it is believable. I like your word 'convincingly' but stop at 'recreation'.

I liked your post because it was thoughtful.
 
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I suspect that you would be quite happy with one of these Viz:

In your corner :}
Why is it that seventy(+) years of innovation and learning hasn’t (IMHO) made music playback systems for the home sound more real?
 
Why is it that seventy(+) years of innovation and learning hasn’t (IMHO) made music playback systems for the home sound more real?
Because they threw the baby out with the bathwater with regards to things like dynamics in pursuit of a flat frequency response and "low" distortion...not realizing that dynamic and thermal compression are forms of distortion. Speaker systems had to be sensitive when watts were dear but it somehow didn't occur to the majority of engineers that this was inadvertently a blessing because speakers could more faithfully capture dynamics when they were very sensitive. There was also the drive to make stereos more domestically friendly (ie. smaller) and as watts became cheap, small became feasible. But this damaged the sound in a whole host of ways.
 
Because they threw the baby out with the bathwater with regards to things like dynamics in pursuit of a flat frequency response and "low" distortion...not realizing that dynamic and thermal compression are forms of distortion. Speaker systems had to be sensitive when watts were dear but it somehow didn't occur to the majority of engineers that this was inadvertently a blessing because speakers could more faithfully capture dynamics when they were very sensitive. There was also the drive to make stereos more domestically friendly (ie. smaller) and as watts became cheap, small became feasible. But this damaged the sound in a whole host of ways.
Watts became cheaper, transistors also cheaper than valves, small speakers cost less in materials than larger speakers and a highly polished aluminium face plate will add several thousands in profits as well. The business, led by the quest for ever greater profit, will (IMHO) end up ending it (why would young people spend £100’s of thousands on mediocre-sounding audio esoterica instead of a house, or business? ).
 
Watts became cheaper, transistors also cheaper than valves, small speakers cost less in materials than larger speakers and a highly polished aluminium face plate will add several thousands in profits as well. The business, led by the quest for ever greater profit, will (IMHO) end up ending it (why would young people spend £100’s of thousands on mediocre-sounding audio esoterica instead of a house, or business? ).
Because they can then look in the mirror polish of their gear at themselves!
 

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