Problems with believability in audio

[Ron Resnick]

Of course. I didn't men to imply that was all you used. If I was going for bass extension I don't drop on a soprano. I use a multitude of recordings to make a selection. Vocals a key part of an overall evaluation.

Rob

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Having only two channels of source information is a big impediment to achieving believability. FWIW.

 

[morricab]

Having only two channels of source information is a big impediment to achieving believability. FWIW.

I haven’t heard a multichannel setup that was in anyway more convincing…not saying it isn’t possible but to date every demo has sounded rather contrived.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I haven’t heard a multichannel setup that was in anyway more convincing…not saying it isn’t possible but to date every demo has sounded rather contrived.

I understand and I understand why but it is unfortunate.

 

[ssfas]

If your in row N, your how far back. Maybe even in row DD. How far are you from your speakers.

With a good concert hall acoustic it really doesn't matter where you sit. You can be 40 yards away and the sound can feel like it's coming from in front of your face.

All you really need is about $500 million, a singular vision and no compromise on the acoustics. I was in Copenhagen this weekend, the opera house has a reverberation time of 1.6s and extraordinary clarity. Nearby Oslo Opera House is designed for both opera and orchestral performance (I've heard both there) and works very well at both, which is extremely rare. Typical reverb of 1.7s. See here:

https://www.ioa.org.uk/system/files/proceedings/jp_newton_rw_harris_the_acoustic_of_the_store_sal_oslo_opera_house.pdf

Another Scandinavian hall, designed for a range of musical genres with a focus on classical, has a huge reverberation chamber, 1,500 moving panels and the seat rake chan be changed. The reverb time can be changed from 1.7s to 3.8s.

Eldborg | Harpa Conference & Concert Hall

Eldborg is Harpa's largest hall, where all the design and implementation create an elegant setting. The hall is specially designed for concerts but is also suit

www.harpa.is

In London we have a new small theatre underneath the main Covent Garden theatre that also has variable rake and most of the 400 seats can move. It is ideal for small scale Baroque opera (last one was Pimpinone a few weeks ago), but also works with solo piano and electronic music.

The Linbury Theatre, Royal Opera House - Theatre & Venue Design - Charcoalblue

A radical opening up of London’s world-famous opera house welcomes in a new generation with spacious foyers, a reconfigurable theatre and expanded programming opportunities.

www.charcoalblue.com

In the main opera hall, it's good for an old hall, but you need to know where to sit.

Besides world-leading acoustic engineers like Arup, you need space. Of those listed above, Copenhagen is built on an island in a canal, Reykavik on reclaimed land in the sea and Oslo on reclaimed land in a fjord. Copenhagen has four rehearsal areas all as large as the main theatre. Oslo can change the seating, acoustics and stage from orchestral to opera in a few hours. Too many places are compromised by their ancient acoustics Boards wanting more seats and more performances.

You then have lots of really weird venues that shouldn't work that do, like this festival in Peckham's multi-storey car park.

Bold Tendencies

boldtendencies.com

There are then venues that are the original venues and considered by many necessary for an authentic sound, even if not ideal. In London we have St Martin-in-the-Fields and St John Smith's Square, both built in the 1730s. For Handel and Bach there's nowhere better.

Lives venues are probably vastly more varied than the sounds of audio equipment, at whatever price. So when people talk about "live", what are they really talking about? Is it some mystical ideal venue? No such thing exists.

 

[SoundMann]

Having only two channels of source information is a big impediment to achieving believability. FWIW.

Yes. That's why I invented a 3-channel, true channel playback array utilizing 3 ultra linear dipole phase array loudspeakers plus a special processor that sends a mono single to the center speaker, and specially phased right and left "ambient" signals to the outer 2.

What makes it particularly special is that it works equally as well for mono or stereo recordings.

 

[thedudeabides]

Lives venues are probably vastly more varied than the sounds of audio equipment, at whatever price. So when people talk about "live", what are they really talking about? Is it some mystical ideal venue? No such thing exists.

If I understand you correctly, given the sound variation delta between different "live" venues versus home audio systems, the latter may or may not be "believable" (or degrees thereof) depending on the recording venue (and specfic seat location) of the former. Yes?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Yes. That's why I invented a 3-channel, true channel playback array utilizing 3 ultra linear dipole phase array loudspeakers plus a special processor that sends a mono single to the center speaker, and specially phased right and left "ambient" signals to the outer 2.

What makes it particularly special is that it works equally as well for mono or stereo recordings.

I am glad it works for you but it still lacks discrete spatial information except from the front.

 

[hopkins]

I understand and I understand why but it is unfortunate.

It could be a matter of preference. I have a hard time conceiving how any multi-channel system would offer more convincing vocals than a single - mono - Altec 755 speaker (with the right system...), for example. I am open to the possibility, but very skeptical. This does not mean that someone else would not legitimately consider a multi-channel system to be their own benchmark.

 

[Holmz]

My use of vocals is actually much narrower than this. I use vocals to evaluate loudspeakers solely with regard to how convincingly they reproduce vocals.

I don't think reproduction of vocals is a yardstick for how convincingly loudspeakers reproduce tympani drums, for example.

But people have not listened to tympani drums since before birth. Voice is the primary thing we start with and use.

 

[Robh3606]

It could be a matter of preference. I have a hard time conceiving how any multi-channel system would offer more convincing vocals than a single - mono - Altec 755 speaker (with the right system...), for example. I am open to the possibility, but very skeptical. This does not mean that someone else would not legitimately consider a multi-channel system their own benchmark.

Depends on the conditions of the recording. Close mic not much difference. In an ambient space there can be a difference you can better capture the space that is in the recording that enhances the experience. Look at the use of the center channel as an example. Turn it off where's the dialog? Turn off the rest no sense of space? Turn off the L/R and it's a perplexing mix.

Rob

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It could be a matter of preference. I have a hard time conceiving how any multi-channel system would offer more convincing vocals than a single - mono - Altec 755 speaker (with the right system...), for example. I am open to the possibility, but very skeptical.

If one restricts the program material to a single unaccompanied vocalist in a particularly accommodating performance site, your point could be debated (and, of course, tested). Otherwise, not. (IMHO, of course, is appended to all.)

 

[hopkins]

If one restricts the program material to a single unaccompanied vocalist in a particularly accommodating performance site, your point could be debated (and, of course, tested). Otherwise, not. (IMHO, of course, is appended to all.)

I had the same impressions regardless of program material (vocals are vocals). You need to experience it, then you can make up your mind.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You need to experience it, then you can make up your mind.

Granted although I suggest the completmentary challenge to you.

 

[hopkins]

Granted although I suggest the completmentary challenge to you.

Agreed, I am open to the possibility, but if a single speaker fails (IMO) at reproducing something simple (here, this is based on actual listening with a wide variety of speakers), I don't see how adding 6 or more of the same speaker would change that. I may be wrong.

 

[sbo6]

I said nothing about their relationship to different types of music. Care to assign a speaker type to each genre of music??

I do not care to assign one but thank you for the offer. ;-)

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Agreed, I am open to the possibility, but if a single speaker fails (IMO) at reproducing something simple (here, this is based on actual listening with a wide variety of speakers), I don't see how adding 6 or more of the same speaker would change that. I may be wrong.

You may be wrong although I am not asserting it.
I think we are separated by paradigms My experience with monophonic records/playback ceased when I graduated from high school, except for occasional experiments. Today, I cannot imagine the satisfying reproduction of a mono recording of a solo voice with a single speaker unless the recording is made in an anechoic (or semi-anechoic) space. Then, good mono reproduction would result in the illusion of the person singing in the playback room. However, if it is recorded in a "normal" acoustic space, all the spatial/ambiance information of the 3-dimensional space, is squashed up front and conflated with the acoustics of the listening room.

 

[hopkins]

You may be wrong although I am not asserting it.
I think we are separated by paradigms My experience with monophonic records/playback ceased when I graduated from high school, except for occasional experiments.
Today, I cannot imagine the satisfying reproduction of a mono recording of a solo voice with a single speaker unless the recording is made in an anechoic (or semi-anechoic) space. Then, good mono reproduction would result in the illusion of the person singing in the playback room. However, if it is recorded in a "normal" acoustic space, all the spatial/ambiance information of the 3-dimensional space, is squashed up front and conflated with the acoustics of the listening room.

I mentioned a single speaker, only because my other was not matched and sounded different. As for the recordings (which don't have to be a "solo voice"), you are wrong, because you don't take into account how microphones work (they are not omni-directional...). If I followed your logic, i would never listen to single microphone recordings. It would be a shame...

Anyway, it does not all come down to "space", it also had to do with resolution and distortion, unless you can't tell the difference between speakers, and it's just a question of having more (speakers).

 

[SoundMann]

I am glad it works for you but it still lacks discrete spatial information except from the front.

Well, it's been years since I experimented with it. But once it is dialed in, it doesn't sound spatially deficient as it is good at reasonably fooling one into thinking that it isn't.

Are convincing illusions not good enough?

 

[sbo6]

Are you referring to sbo6? If so, he does not seem to want to cite specific examples. I wish people would be more explicit when they make claims.

There were 2 different sub - topics. 1 was about horns and I said I've only heard a few that I felt didn't have the common horn artifacts. If you want examples of horns that had such artifacts, here are a few - the JBL Everest I heard at RMAF some years back. Absolutely awful and my 2 friends agreed. Mid - sized AvanteGards heard ~several times, the newer ones seem a bit better. Not bad horns - the Aries Cerat dealer lives 20 minutes from me, so I've heard the Aries Cerat's Symphonia several times, not bad, but not a true complete horn system, the ribbon is quite good.

The second was my comment specific to low distortion speakers and why speaker type would be better matched for a music genre.