World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm

[ack]

Now this is real value - can you tell us what was the technical information and calculations that could show you that Mundorf parts had higher value than the whole competition?

This thread is not about this; but see my system's first page for links to those relevant technical threads on the MLO site, and moreover, there are threads here (e.g. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?4159-What-s-Best-in-Crossover-Capacitors) where others, more technical, steered me in a certain direction and we discussed the virtues of various coil and capacitor designs and what that meant for, say, inductance characteristics of capacitors and how the Mundorfs' design nulls them out, etc, etc...

 

[ack]

You are highlighting my point. You know how to valuate things on cars - perfect, it is an engineer affair. But how can you valuate the effect of the expensive metal X combined with material Z both having different Compressive strength, Density, Ductility, Fatigue limit,Flexural modulus, Flexural strength, Fracture toughness, Hardness,Plasticity, Poisson's ratio, Shear modulus, Shear strain, Shear strength, Specific modulus, Specific weight, Tensile strength, Yield strength, Young's modulus, Coefficient of friction and Coefficient of restitution on the sound quality of a tonearm?

I think you are missing the point. It's not what I can tell about all these factors in someone's else design by looking at them, but rather it's what the manufacturers can divulge about their products with respect to technical factors, which I then analyze [to death ].

 

[microstrip]

This thread is not about this; but see my system's first page for links to those relevant technical threads on the MLO site, and moreover, there are threads here (e.g. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?4159-What-s-Best-in-Crossover-Capacitors) where others, more technical, steered me in a certain direction and we discussed the virtues of various coil and capacitor designs and what that meant for, say, inductance characteristics of capacitors and how the Mundorfs' design nulls them out, etc, etc...

The thread was not also about BMW's. But you raised an important aspect when you compared the value of the Mundorf parts in this thread. As I valuate highly these parts and my speakers also have their top quality parts, I feel free to debate it. You seem to say that others steered you in a certain direction and now refer to etc, etc - inductance is tow low to be an important parameter in speaker crossovers, nothing else is left. Can you in fairness say that you could understand technologically what was the contribution of these expensive parts to the speaker sound?

And yes, I feel very happy that you have managed to improve your already great speakers - I also took part in the inconclusive thread you refer. But all my science can not explain in a reliable and serious way the sound of capacitors.

 

[microstrip]

I think you are missing the point. It's not what I can tell about all these factors in someone's else design by looking at them, but rather it's what the manufacturers can divulge about their products with respect to technical factors, which I then analyze [to death ].

We all want to have a good time - it is why we are participating in WBF!

 

[microstrip]

I'm not a vinyl guru at all however when I read about a $16.5K tonearm that otherwise was the cat's meow and now we read about a $5K sapphire plate that removes distortion, all I can say is.........

Mike, I keep reading how your system is distortion free until you listen to a sapphire plate and suddenly the distortion which you never heard before is now gone with a $5K plate. I don't get it

Steve,

Do you remember the guy that loved to debate the sound of GM70 copper plate versus carbon plate? It all a question of PLATES!

 

[DaveyF]

I think a lot of us here are missing my simple point. The designer (Touraj) of this particular tonearm has set a price for it that he believes that the market will bear. Whether this is correct or not will be borne out in the result of how many he sells. Perhaps, at this price price point, selling just one item will suffice. Perhaps, he needs to sell x number before a sufficient profit is accrued. What is interesting is that somehow, Touraj believes or knows, that a price of $35K will result in at least enough sales to make this endeavor worthwhile for him. My point, again, is how does he arrive at this number....versus a number that is either much higher or much lower. Since it would appear on the face of it that the pricing of many high-end items is purely arbitrary, a $35K tonearm (even if it is the best sounding tonearm in the world...and for this price it had better be, IMO) is a conundrum. The conundrum relates to what is the maximum price a potential Buyer would pay for such a device, before ALL potential Buyer's shout 'enough is enough'. Therefore, my question to Touraj is: $35K...why not $350K or better still $3.5M or? BTW, this pricing question does apply to all manufacturer's of high-end gear...what will your market bear before you have simply "overpriced". Does your market research ( which I am assuming is in fact done...perhaps a VERY BIG assumption) correspond with your pricing strategy...inquiring minds etc, etc.

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve,

Do you remember the guy that loved to debate the sound of GM70 copper plate versus carbon plate? It all a question of PLATES!

and if you recall I stated that the stock carbon tube bettered the far more expensive copper plated tube

 

[ack]

Can you in fairness say that you could understand technologically what was the contribution of these expensive parts to the speaker sound?

Last round on this, because this thread is about the arm, and I have covered why technology matters to me... Yes I could easily technologically understand statements like the following made by the manufacturer (specific to inherent, unwanted inductance in capacitors I mentioned earlier) - I am not exactly a foreigner to technology either, including electronics: "[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1. Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF M-CAP SUPREME capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology!"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[microstrip]

and if you recall I stated that the stock carbon tube bettered the far more expensive copper plated tube

Yes, you were lucky owner of one the exiting six pairs!

 

[Steve Williams]

Yes, you were lucky owner of one the exiting six pairs!

I still have them but never use them

 

[microstrip]

Last round on this, because this thread is about the arm, and I have covered why technology matters to me... Yes I could easily technologically understand statements like the following made by the manufacturer (specific to inherent, unwanted inductance in capacitors I mentioned earlier) - I am not exactly a foreigner to technology either, including electronics: "[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]1. Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF M-CAP SUPREME capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology!"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Yes, but what is the effect of the "unwanted inductance"? Unless there is an effect in sound quality, you are just repeating the known formulas of capacitance association and mutual inductance. Do you know the qualitative value of the typical inductance of a 1 microFarad capacitor?

 

[garylkoh]

All I can say is that it's not intended to be the world's best value-for-money tonearm. Touraj was going to the limit of what he knows from designing tonearms for the past 25 years and doing what's possible. That's why this is the Vertere Reference Tonearm. What he learns from this, he will cascade down like he did with the Artemiz down to the Tabriz, and even further down to the included tonearm on the Roksan Radius.

I won't quiz Touraj on what he has put inside the tonearm, whether machining the headshell to 2.5 thou is worth the machining upcharge or whether 2 microns of gold on the leaf bearing laminar is going to be better than 1.2 microns of platinum (he said gold is cheaper and better by the way) because I've never designed a tonearm, I wouldn't know what are possible points on the decision tree, or even the sonic effects of any of the decision points.

What I care for is the end result. If the tonearm is the weak link of my system, and going from a $6000 tonearm to a $35,000 tonearm is going to elevate my enjoyment of the $1,000,000 I've already put into my room and system and my 20,000 LP's. Guess what the answer is going to be?

Yesterday, someone who has heard the Dragon/Air Force One in Hong Kong commented that we had taken the sound up a further level and he can't wait until my distributor in Hong Kong can get a Vertere Reference Tonearm installed there.

 

[garylkoh]

I think a lot of us here are missing my simple point. The designer (Touraj) of this particular tonearm has set a price for it that he believes that the market will bear. Whether this is correct or not will be borne out in the result of how many he sells. Perhaps, at this price price point, selling just one item will suffice. Perhaps, he needs to sell x number before a sufficient profit is accrued. What is interesting is that somehow, Touraj believes or knows, that a price of $35K will result in at least enough sales to make this endeavor worthwhile for him. My point, again, is how does he arrive at this number....versus a number that is either much higher or much lower. Since it would appear on the face of it that the pricing of many high-end items is purely arbitrary, a $35K tonearm (even if it is the best sounding tonearm in the world...and for this price it had better be, IMO) is a conundrum. The conundrum relates to what is the maximum price a potential Buyer would pay for such a device, before ALL potential Buyer's shout 'enough is enough'. Therefore, my question to Touraj is: $35K...why not $350K or better still $3.5M or? BTW, this pricing question does apply to all manufacturer's of high-end gear...what will your market bear before you have simply "overpriced". Does your market research ( which I am assuming is in fact done...perhaps a VERY BIG assumption) correspond with your pricing strategy...inquiring minds etc, etc.

No, that is not correct. He did not set a price. He designed the best tonearm he could, and toted up the cost of all the parts if he made these tonearms in batches of 5. That resulted in the arm price. It does not include amortization of the the 2 years of research and development. He will eventually recoup his investment selling at the usual margins of this crazy industry, but knowing Touraj, he will continually improve it and the price will only go up as his costs go up. Witness the pricing on the Artemiz from 1986 to today.

 

[DaveyF]

All I can say is that it's not intended to be the world's best value-for-money tonearm. Touraj was going to the limit of what he knows from designing tonearms for the past 25 years and doing what's possible. That's why this is the Vertere Reference Tonearm. What he learns from this, he will cascade down like he did with the Artemiz down to the Tabriz, and even further down to the included tonearm on the Roksan Radius.

I won't quiz Touraj on what he has put inside the tonearm, whether machining the headshell to 2.5 thou is worth the machining upcharge or whether 2 microns of gold on the leaf bearing laminar is going to be better than 1.2 microns of platinum (he said gold is cheaper and better by the way) because I've never designed a tonearm, I wouldn't know what are possible points on the decision tree, or even the sonic effects of any of the decision points.

What I care for is the end result. If the tonearm is the weak link of my system, and going from a $6000 tonearm to a $35,000 tonearm is going to elevate my enjoyment of the $1,000,000 I've already put into my room and system and my 20,000 LP's. Guess what the answer is going to be?

Yesterday, someone who has heard the Dragon/Air Force One in Hong Kong commented that we had taken the sound up a further level and he can't wait until my distributor in Hong Kong can get a Vertere Reference Tonearm installed there.

Gary, all of what you say is obvious. However, that doesn't address my question. You say the arm price...the price to the consumer or the price that it cost Touraj. Let me make one thing abundantly clear...I couldn't give a rat's ass as to what profit Touraj wants to make. He's entitled to make whatever he thinks he needs to. I'm asking how he came about his pricing strategy in regards to his arm. Plain and simple. Because, IF you have just made the world's best tonearm, why do you price it at $35K vs. a much higher price. I presume the answer lies in the fact that this is a price that Touraj believes is the MAXIMUM he can get for this piece. I'm just trying to figure out how he knows that. Which is why I keep on asking why not a MUCH higher price...like $350K or $3.5M...no Buyers at that price( you sure )

 

[A.wayne]

my Durand Telos lists at $16,500 (last time i checked).

a month or so ago i was able to audition a 'hot-rod' upgrade to my Telos, a substitute of a Sapphire cartridge plate for the metal one that is standard. i'll just say that it was easy to hear how it exposed the distortion of the metal cartridge plate. this Sapphire cartridge plate costs around $5k. i decided once i heard what it does to buy it....which pushes my Telos to $21,500.

having a Sapphire cartridge plate made is not cheap. whether 3 or 5 or 100. i could hear what it obviously did for the performance.

all i'm saying is that there are pieces that are not cheap to make that are very expensive. if they provide clear performance improvements then one has to make a decision how important those improvements might be.

+10, especially if that 5K spent elsewhere wont give you the same performance increase ....

 

[A.wayne]

I'm not a vinyl guru at all however when I read about a $16.5K tonearm that otherwise was the cat's meow and now we read about a $5K sapphire plate that removes distortion, all I can say is.........

Mike, I keep reading how your system is distortion free until you listen to a sapphire plate and suddenly the distortion which you never heard before is now gone with a $5K plate. I don't get it

Because you dont have good Scotch ....

 

[microstrip]

I think a lot of us here are missing my simple point. The designer (Touraj) of this particular tonearm has set a price for it that he believes that the market will bear. Whether this is correct or not will be borne out in the result of how many he sells. Perhaps, at this price price point, selling just one item will suffice. Perhaps, he needs to sell x number before a sufficient profit is accrued. What is interesting is that somehow, Touraj believes or knows, that a price of $35K will result in at least enough sales to make this endeavor worthwhile for him. My point, again, is how does he arrive at this number....versus a number that is either much higher or much lower. Since it would appear on the face of it that the pricing of many high-end items is purely arbitrary, a $35K tonearm (even if it is the best sounding tonearm in the world...and for this price it had better be, IMO) is a conundrum. The conundrum relates to what is the maximum price a potential Buyer would pay for such a device, before ALL potential Buyer's shout 'enough is enough'. Therefore, my question to Touraj is: $35K...why not $350K or better still $3.5M or? BTW, this pricing question does apply to all manufacturer's of high-end gear...what will your market bear before you have simply "overpriced". Does your market research ( which I am assuming is in fact done...perhaps a VERY BIG assumption) correspond with your pricing strategy...inquiring minds etc, etc.

DaveyF,
Gary already answered to this concern. It seems the designer had a different approach - I hope that you are not expecting him to show us detailed calculus of the price. IMHO, this debate would die of natural causes, as did the $650,000 turntable, if it was not that Gary, someone we consider a lot, would not have told us that the tonearm is worth is price. Everyone is prepared to accept extravaganza, but not to consider it reasonable!

He didn't build it to a target price. It just ended up at that price. He wouldn't give us a price until last Friday (2 days before the show) as he didn't have his cost on the last part. Knowing Touraj, once this is stable, he will see where he can shave cost off and make a cheaper one.

 

[A.wayne]

+10

All I can say is that it's not intended to be the world's best value-for-money tonearm. Touraj was going to the limit of what he knows from designing tonearms for the past 25 years and doing what's possible. That's why this is the Vertere Reference Tonearm. What he learns from this, he will cascade down like he did with the Artemiz down to the Tabriz, and even further down to the included tonearm on the Roksan Radius.

I won't quiz Touraj on what he has put inside the tonearm, whether machining the headshell to 2.5 thou is worth the machining upcharge or whether 2 microns of gold on the leaf bearing laminar is going to be better than 1.2 microns of platinum (he said gold is cheaper and better by the way) because I've never designed a tonearm, I wouldn't know what are possible points on the decision tree, or even the sonic effects of any of the decision points.

What I care for is the end result. If the tonearm is the weak link of my system, and going from a $6000 tonearm to a $35,000 tonearm is going to elevate my enjoyment of the $1,000,000 I've already put into my room and system and my 20,000 LP's. Guess what the answer is going to be?

Yesterday, someone who has heard the Dragon/Air Force One in Hong Kong commented that we had taken the sound up a further level and he can't wait until my distributor in Hong Kong can get a Vertere Reference Tonearm installed there.

 

[A.wayne]

I really can't understand the sudden outrage on the cost of this tonearm, not when you look at what speaker cables and other ancillary items are selling for these days, whats a 35K arm, especially if it's the cat's meow of tonearms, makes it a deal when compared to the cost of other top tier reference items..

No, that is not correct. He did not set a price. He designed the best tonearm he could, and toted up the cost of all the parts if he made these tonearms in batches of 5. That resulted in the arm price. It does not include amortization of the the 2 years of research and development. He will eventually recoup his investment selling at the usual margins of this crazy industry, but knowing Touraj, he will continually improve it and the price will only go up as his costs go up. Witness the pricing on the Artemiz from 1986 to today.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm not a vinyl guru at all however when I read about a $16.5K tonearm that otherwise was the cat's meow and now we read about a $5K sapphire plate that removes distortion, all I can say is.........

Mike, I keep reading how your system is distortion free until you listen to a sapphire plate and suddenly the distortion which you never heard before is now gone with a $5K plate. I don't get it

i've had many events where distortion has been lowered....and shared those.

but my system being distortion free? i'm afraid i'll ask you to show me where i ever said that.

you seem to want to pick on me personally.

no system is or can be distortion free. but we can all work on getting there.

and many times until your hear something that removes distortion you don't realize what you have heard was distorted. sometimes it's simply more resolving, or sometimes you just like it better too....it's not always about distortion.