World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm
- Thread starter garylkoh
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We shouldn't Shaffer but we do.
I can bet you this is the first of several arms costing much more. It won't take long. And because of its price it will be considered as the arm to own. From the pictures of the arm here, the construction doesn't seem any extraordinary, compared to the exquisiteness of a Triplanar, Durand Telos or a Graham 1.5T .. Maybe the sound is the difference ... Anyhooo
I am at the low scale of the story with a SME iV.. So I am sure SME will be next with a SME X in the neighborhood. Come to think .. Tonearms manufacturers have been holding back for a while in this world of 100K TT Now the Pandora box has been opened
No sure I understand this one but. Care to elaborate?
I dont see the issue , there are arms costing a few hundred all the way to this one at 35k , whats the issue , more power to Money-san, everyone should know their worth ..
@35k the price doesn't affect me .....
@35k the price doesn't affect me .....
This thread should be a sticky. The moderators can just substitute the name of the next expensive audio product to be released and we can save everyone a lot of time and anxiety.
FWIW, as in all product categories in a (more or less) free market, whether they be $25,000+ handbags, $295 hamburgers, ad infinitum, there will invariably be a product that sets the far extreme of expense. Each individual must make their choice whether they a) receive fair value for the expense and b) have the wherewithal to afford said expense. That someone makes the decision to purchase an extremely expensive product does not invalidate your choice not to purchase it or to purchase something much less costly.
THAT said, Gary, when are you bringing the tonearm to my place so I can hear it in my system
FWIW, as in all product categories in a (more or less) free market, whether they be $25,000+ handbags, $295 hamburgers, ad infinitum, there will invariably be a product that sets the far extreme of expense. Each individual must make their choice whether they a) receive fair value for the expense and b) have the wherewithal to afford said expense. That someone makes the decision to purchase an extremely expensive product does not invalidate your choice not to purchase it or to purchase something much less costly.
THAT said, Gary, when are you bringing the tonearm to my place so I can hear it in my system
and i had a new pair of sp100s around '95 and paid two grand as dealer close out and felt good about selling them two yrs later for what i paid. i should have stored them in garage as an annuity and collected a tidy profit at resale 18 yrs later. i also dropped out of audio til last year, my hiatus lasted closer to 15 yrs and yes, the sticker shock was not easy to comprehend.
a luxury watch dealer i know told me he has no shortage of buyers for timepieces at $50k and above but cant give away the ones between 10 and 20 grand. go figure.
We shouldn't Shaffer but we do.
I can bet you this is the first of several arms costing much more. It won't take long. And because of its price it will be considered as the arm to own. From the pictures of the arm here, the construction doesn't seem any extraordinary, compared to the exquisiteness of a Triplanar, Durand Telos or a Graham 1.5T .. Maybe the sound is the difference ... Anyhooo
I am at the low scale of the story with a SME iV.. So I am sure SME will be next with a SME X in the neighborhood. Come to think .. Tonearms manufacturers have been holding back for a while in this world of 100K TT Now the Pandora box has been opened
No sure I understand this one but. Care to elaborate?
The Air Tangent cost 12k (a bit more with the remote control VTA option) 10 years ago and nobody screamed. What would that be in today's pricing? Did anyone scream about the price of the Goldmund Reference table--despite the difficulty keeping the table and especially the arm, aligned and running.
You know I am really shocked by how everyone has ganged up on Gary regarding the price of the Vertere and virtually no one has talked about how it sounds (I will hopefully get to hear it tomorrow at the show). As has been said before, show me ANY product in ANY market where the BEST is the cheapest? A rarity if it happens.
Besides which, this forum is about what's the best sounding audio products and in Gary's humble estimation (I do think he does have some credibility as a manufacturer), this is the best arm he has heard. Others may disagree but as has also been said here many times--and many have been correctly criticized--how can anyone comment on the sound without having heard the arm??? Or for that matter actually seen the arm close up and personal? No one is twisting anyone's arm to buy the tonearm.
I think Gary deserved the benefit of the doubt here guys!
This thread should be a sticky. The moderators can just substitute the name of the next expensive audio product to be released and we can save everyone a lot of time and anxiety.
FWIW, as in all product categories in a (more or less) free market, whether they be $25,000+ handbags, $295 hamburgers, ad infinitum, there will invariably be a product that sets the far extreme of expense. Each individual must make their choice whether they a) receive fair value for the expense and b) have the wherewithal to afford said expense. That someone makes the decision to purchase an extremely expensive product does not invalidate your choice not to purchase it or to purchase something much less costly.
THAT said, Gary, when are you bringing the tonearm to my place so I can hear it in my system
+1
My system too!
Thanks, Myles. Remember to bring your killer LPs. Touraj might tell you more than he's telling me since you're a reviewer.... I know that he spent a lot of time with Robert Harley today talking about the tonearm from the looks of things. I was busy with one of my distributors.
See how everybody forgot that my speakers are $80,000 when we start talking about a $35,000 tonearm? My motives are purely selfish. I want to show off my speakers to the best of their ability.
See how everybody forgot that my speakers are $80,000 when we start talking about a $35,000 tonearm? My motives are purely selfish. I want to show off my speakers to the best of their ability.
THAT said, Gary, when are you bringing the tonearm to my place so I can hear it in my system
I can't even get it for my system - he says that he's learned a couple of things hearing it in this system.
Myles
I don't see the issue as ganging on Gary. It is a fair question to ask. It is an issue to raise and few people are willing. This in itself an interestin debate in group behavior. Our hobby is clearly a luxury endeavor. No doubt. What is at stakes though is a minimum of performance. It is a goal, reproduce the music. We claim preferences ut they are preferences of performances, not a of how swet it sounds else we all know we devolve into the land of Bose, where the sound has no bearing with reality but seems to please the masses. So the question becomes: Is the gear reproducing music better than its compeition? This question should be asked. As for the too often cited issue of prroduction cost .. The least said the better...
So we have an arm here that cost multiple of what arms usually cost and in the opinion of an esteemed person it is the best, tht is fine . Doesn't it require further inquiry? Further questioning? For the price asked shouldn't the gear in question be subjected to more rigorous tests before being anointed :THE BEST!!??
AS for the matter of people buying 50k watches more power to both them and their dealers. None of these people would dare say that the watches they buy at $50K extracts more timing information from anything except their bank accounts. Its performance is accepted to be inferior for what the basic function of a watch is: keeping time. As for the watch as a piece of Jewelry: No need for performance data or criterion For a Tonearm. There is a clear performance notion. it may not be entirely objective but i think we can defer to some observational recollection, we also call these reviews but we can also measure certain parameters of arms. To me it is a fair question to ask if it surpasses that from Graham costing $6k or other good arms out there and with what cartridge? We know the intimate relationship between arm and cartridge .. Will this $35K arms works with ALL cartridge? Will be the best with ANY and ALL cartridges? Do the performance justify its price? ... All valid questions in my opinion and for that whoever touts it as the best has better come up with some indications of performance that go beyond of : "I like it a lot more than anything else". My $0.02
By the way, telling me that at a show in a foreign system one will recognize the signature or contribution of an arm is to me a strech. Of a speaker? Certainly? Of an arm or a TT? a strrrrrrrrretch
P.S. Yes people screamed at the Goldmund Reference Table and a great deal. So much that they bought much less expensive tables. Today I don't see people clamoring it is the absolute table to have ... I see (who could toward the Goldmund in a heartbeat) getting all excited about several much less dear TTs these days ...
If he's reading WBF maybe he can chime in himself. As far as I know, the ET-2 also has different resonant frequencies in the two planes, and I have in fact helped a fellow here tune them with various calculations, after reading that patent (which makes it clear there are two resonant frequencies).
Those were leaf SPRINGS with supports on the ends and load bearing in the center, i.e., the axle. The spring had several steel "leaves" sometimes interlaced with a softer metal sheets like zinc that lubricated the steel leaves so they don't squeak. They use them mostly on trucks these days. The varying length of the leaves gave a variable rate spring-slightly softer on light loads with an increased compression rate for heavy loads..
From what I was able to find from a few sites on the internet, a DOOR HINGE is an example of a leaf bearing. The hinge in in the center and is attached to the load and support components by "leaves" which allow movement in only one direction.
See this link: http://books.google.com/books?id=rd...0CF4Q6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=leaf bearings&f=false
see the part of the page "leaf and link bearings."
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Not only is price an integral part of the equation, it is also one of the factors that establishes credibility in one's mind. There is nothing unfair or negative about discussing price and value...
Ack,
How do you establish the value of a tonearm without listening to it in an adequate system and comparing it with alternatives?
IMHO, reverse engineering is not the a proper way of establishing it. It is nice to please our curiosity, but nothing else, unless it was all a scam.
BTW, I have no doubts that if all members of WBF would join to place a common direct order the price could reduce to less than usd 12000 ...
Ack,
How do you establish the value of a tonearm without listening to it in an adequate system and comparing it with alternatives?
IMHO, reverse engineering is not the a proper way of establishing it. It is nice to please our curiosity, but nothing else, unless it was all a scam.
BTW, I have no doubts that if all members of WBF would join to place a common direct order the price could reduce to less than usd 12000 ...
Value is a very subjective thing - didn't we cover this? Reverse engineering works very well for me and it's a big part of the equation to me - notice, it's not the ONLY factor in the equation; I simply don't buy into the 'how it sounds' as being the sole determining factor - exactly more so here where it's virtually impossible to A/B arms. There is a LOT to be had by exploring the technology behind each component, and it's exactly because most manufacturers themselves use technology to their benefit in their designs; I truly do not believe in magic. Similarly, I got a pretty good idea of how a BMW drives before I ever drove one, and I placed a _partial_ value on these cars based solely on things like weight distribution, gear and drive train ratios, torque et al. So you can assume that to me, there is absolutely no personal value in any high end component if the technology isn't there, and on the other hand, technology, if it's there, offers a large partial value.
EDIT: When I redid my crossover with Mundorf parts and made other structural modifications, I had nothing else to base the value of the changes but technical information and calculations; the audible results were as expected - technology at work. I am not buying another speaker that won't push its crossover bar as high.
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my Durand Telos lists at $16,500 (last time i checked).
a month or so ago i was able to audition a 'hot-rod' upgrade to my Telos, a substitute of a Sapphire cartridge plate for the metal one that is standard. i'll just say that it was easy to hear how it exposed the distortion of the metal cartridge plate. this Sapphire cartridge plate costs around $5k. i decided once i heard what it does to buy it....which pushes my Telos to $21,500.
having a Sapphire cartridge plate made is not cheap. whether 3 or 5 or 100. i could hear what it obviously did for the performance.
all i'm saying is that there are pieces that are not cheap to make that are very expensive. if they provide clear performance improvements then one has to make a decision how important those improvements might be.
You are highlighting my point. You know how to valuate things on cars - perfect, it is an engineer affair. But how can you valuate the effect of the expensive metal X combined with material Z both having different Compressive strength, Density, Ductility, Fatigue limit,Flexural modulus, Flexural strength, Fracture toughness, Hardness,Plasticity, Poisson's ratio, Shear modulus, Shear strain, Shear strength, Specific modulus, Specific weight, Tensile strength, Yield strength, Young's modulus, Coefficient of friction and Coefficient of restitution on the sound quality of a tonearm?
I admit that the lucky people who have money to buy such an arm should be concerned where their money goes. But I think that BMWs and tonearm must be valuated using very different criterion.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I'm not a vinyl guru at all however when I read about a $16.5K tonearm that otherwise was the cat's meow and now we read about a $5K sapphire plate that removes distortion, all I can say is.........
Mike, I keep reading how your system is distortion free until you listen to a sapphire plate and suddenly the distortion which you never heard before is now gone with a $5K plate. I don't get it
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